Around the Horn – Zero Interest Trap, the Universal Destination of Goods [PODCAST]

Andy Flattery Joe Ibarra CMM 8-2022

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Andy Flattery: Welcome to Catholic money mastermind. This is the show where we explore the intersection of our faith and finances. You can learn more about our organization and find show [email protected]. My name is Andy flattery. I'm a certified financial planner in Kansas city, and I am here with Joe Ibarra, who is a CPA in Kansas city.

Joe, how are you?

Joe Ibarra: I'm doing good, Andy, it's good to be with you?

It's kind of funny because you know, we have planners from all over the country here and yet this episode we're. Just down the street from Kansas city. So it's good to be with the, a neighbor

Andy Flattery: Yeah, this is the Kansas city special. We need to grab some barbecue after this. And welcome to the podcast here for the first time, Joe, I'm excited to hear what you have to say.

Joe Ibarra: Agreed. Happy to be here.

Andy Flattery: Well, good. So this is the kind of around the horn episode. . We are going to talk a little bit about what's going on in our world and what's going on in the news and kind of talk about that from a Catholic perspective, I'm going to talk about interest rates, which doesn't sound super interesting, but I think I think you'll hear the spin that I have on it is maybe a bit of a unique take.

And Joe, what do you have on the street?

Joe Ibarra: I'm going to be talking about a kind of a niche teaching of the church called the universal destination of goods. And what I'll leave you with here for now is it's a an interesting way to think about the usual question of the morality. Accumulating wealth. So the church has it teaching here that we're going to talk about.

I think there's a few things to unpack from it.

Andy Flattery: Yeah, it's super interesting. Maybe you saw this week that the 10 year treasury dropped to 1.2%.

So what that means is if you wanted to. Essentially lend money to the U S treasury for 10 years. The way bonds work is you get paid 1.2% a year. So essentially like $12 on a, a thousand dollar bond. And then at the end of 10 years, you get your principal back. So that's how that's how bonds work.

And so if you haven't followed the the bond market at all just that's quite low. We've had low interest rates for a long time know there was a period like you know, kind of middle of the Trump administration, where they were somewhat normal or at least trying to get, get back there.

But now we're kind of back to these like rock bottom rates. So, you know, this was something that I, I really had not thought a whole lot about for, for many, many years. You know, I'd heard from like my parents, that interest rates used to be a lot higher. And now of course they're a lot lower than what they were 30 years ago, but I never really thought a whole lot about it.

But recently I've been giving it more thought it's it seems like there's more people kind of talking about, you know, what, what would it be like if the United States becomes a society of 0% interest rates and, you know, in the same way that that's the case in like Japan or like developed Europe where even in some places have negative interest rates, which is something that I don't even really understand what that means entirely.

But but I've been reading , some authors that have been talking about this idea of the zero interest rate trap that the zero interest rate trap, which is kind of interesting. And the way to think about interest rates is that it is it's the price of money. Interest rates are the price of money.

So basically if you want to acquire money, interest rates will tell you how much it costs to do that. So in other words, if you have high interest rates, money is expensive. And if you have low interest rates money is inexpensive. It's cheap credit, if you will. And you know, one of the things that encourages a lot is just consumption over savings. Because if you think about it, if you're not really being incentivized to save, because interest rates are low, the, the natural result is that you would just consume instead of safe, right?

Because what, why save money? If there's no reward for that? And so that's kind of interesting, like, and so this can be one of these things that like helps encourage a society to become more consumer driven than a, than a society of savers. And the other thing that happens is that you, you end up seeing people investing in things they don't understand that are more exotic than for example, putting money in the bank account because, you know, why would you, if your, if your bank account doesn't really return anything.

You're going to look elsewhere. You're going to look to stocks, bonds, real estate, stuff like that, which maybe you don't understand entirely, but it makes sense to move in that, in that direction rationally. And so that's kind of my general thesis. You know, this has been happening for years, but I think especially when you see, you know, now one person.

Ten-year bonds. It makes me especially mindful of the fact that we're living in a, a closer to 0% interest rate world. Jodie, you think about interest rates too.

Joe Ibarra: I do. I think it's interesting because it's one of the, I don't want to say few things, but one of the things in the finance world that actually makes its way to kind of the normal day-to-day person's conversation, especially I think of with all these super high home prices yet, the thing that makes it almost affordable is the super low interest rates on the mortgage.

And I think you're going to probably talk a lot about this, but interest rates are one of the things that actually makes its way to fundamental everyday decisions that affects whether or not someone can afford a house because of the low mortgage interest rate. It changes whether or not someone's going to park cash in a money market, or if they're going to move it to stocks, which of course.

For a entire country has huge ramifications over the market. So Yeah. exactly. I think interest rates are one of those things that really makes its way to the everyday decisions.

Andy Flattery: It, it touches everything. I mean, if you're talking about the price of money, well, what w what is there that money doesn't affect, right. If you're talking about people living in their day-to-day lives and yeah. You know, I think about the idea of how much house can you afford. And people are thinking about that.

Not in terms of how much money they have to purchase a house, but how much can they borrow it? Which obviously interest rate really affects or you think about this idea of like mal investment. So if money is cheap and it's easier to buy more stuff there is where you get things like malinvestment where people are.

Using cheap money to invest in things that maybe are not worthwhile projects. And so like an example would be if you have like a construction project that was started with easy money or cheap credit, and then it wasn't finished because it turns out that it wasn't that worthwhile of a project at all.

So like here in downtown Kansas city, there is a half finished 18 story tower, Joe, have you driven by this?

Joe Ibarra: I sure have, look, I look at it almost every day.

Andy Flattery: Yeah. Yeah, it's right. I mean, it's right in the central part of the city, it's like right across from the Kauffman center, which is like our, iconic structure right in the middle of downtown. And yeah, I mean, it's just, it's, it's an example of somebody got the loan to start constructing that tower.

In fact, it was a financial institution that moved to Australia, but when they decided that they did not want to finish the project that left Kansas city with a half finished house. That hopefully somebody will rest you. I don't know what the latest status of it, but here it is, we have a half finished building.

It's literally just a structure of beams right now. And it's been that way for months.

Joe Ibarra: Yeah, I think it's like a great point about how you think about all the, kind of the craziness with meme stocks in the market. That's been nevertheless, a few months. I think a lot of it can be attributed to lots of people having money that they don't know where to put. And like you said, for the buildings, it's also the same truth. You know, stocks or Bitcoin it's like everyone has essentially extra funds and by extra, I just mean that they're, they don't want to have it in cash and they don't know what to do with this. So eventually it gets pushed out to things that, as you said, probably didn't necessitate the investment in the first place.

Andy Flattery: A hundred percent. Yeah. And re and real estate is the easiest example because it's the thing that most people use debt to purchase. You know, Americans here in the United States have the opportunity to use bank money to buy a house. Or, you know, in the case of commercial real estate, a corporation can use a bank's money to build a tower or build half of the tower, at least.

So that's the most obvious example, but yeah, Joe is, you said it, it kind of affects everything. If, if, if you're in a situation where your savings don't return, what they used to. So if you think about like a retiree on a fixed income portfolio, And if 10 years ago, or 20 years ago that retiree could get 5% rate of interest in CDs or bonds.

Well, today, what as I just, as I just pointed out with interest rates being at 1% for a 10 year treasury, if it's now a 1% rate of interest that retiree who was generating $50,000 on their million on their million dollar portfolio has now only receiving a $10,000. On that portfolio. So they just got a pay cut.

So it's kind of interesting. So, so what, what should we take away from this? Well, I think, I think the biggest takeaway is, is we still do need to be kind of wise as serpents and just understand what is going on in a zero interest rate environment. It's not, it's not really an option to be oblivious to it.

Because it's really easy to get sucked in to the kind of the zero interest rate trap. Cause to some extent you probably do need to play the game. You know, most of us we're going to, at some point in our life probably want to live in a home. We're probably going to buy a home and I'm not, I'm not saying that people shouldn't try to do that, but.

But it's important to be wise as serpents because perhaps the incentives want us to maybe buy more home than what we should at this particular time. So that, that could be one word of caution. I, and you know, I think the other thing that I think it's a little bit of an example of the idea that debt is bonded.

Joe Ibarra: Okay.

Andy Flattery: Debt is bondage if kind of the whole system is based on the ability to maintain low interest rates. So for example, if you own a home, you really want to keep interest rates low. Because that allows home prices to stay high. Right.

And so there's a little bit of a built-in incentive for people to kind of want this to continue. And it's, maybe that's a little bit of the idea that, of debt being bondage in that we're all kind of, we're all kind of, not too worried about it. Even if there are some kind of , pernicious effects of low interest rates.

That's my little soap box, Joe.

Joe Ibarra: That's that's good stuff. I think it's super interesting. You talk about the, the bondage of debt. And I think about several friends that I have who are thinking about refinancing their mortgages because of the low interest rates. And a lot of the times it's not doing a refinance that lowers the longterm.

Years of their bondage, but usually they're refinancing back to a full 30 and it kind of just makes you question. I I've been thinking about things, how, you know, when you go make a big purchase, you do a, you know, 0% financing. It probably makes people purchase things that they shouldn't afford in the first place and probably most true in homes.

And I almost think that Right.

now you have to make decisions. Less about all of these kinds of financial indicators and more just like take a step back and ask yourself, like, is this really. A value that I can afford to this an endeavor I want to go through because the, whether it's interest rates or just general market themes, you almost have to take a step back and just look at it from almost a simple principle perspective which is a challenge.

I think it's a, a big call to everyone out there to not get caught up in the swings of the world and to kind of evaluate for yourself. Cause I fucking get it. Caught up in like as you said, the 0% interest rate trap. I think that's a very descriptive way to put it.

Andy Flattery: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, the easiest thing to do is if you're making your mortgage payment, you look at what a lower payment would look like. Yeah. That kind of first sort of thinking of that as well. I want the payment to be lower. That that's good. Right. But as you point out, what, what, what actually happens more often than not is people end up extending the loan out even further, or they end up maybe taking on more debt, like if they're taking cash out of the house or if they're like rolling up closing costs into the note.

Cause cause it, it costs money to refinance. So you need to be careful about that. Even if it's lowering your payment it isn't necessarily getting, getting you ahead. And, you know, essentially you could be putting yourself in a position where it's just extending the lifetime of payments and a lot of people are going to have

Joe Ibarra: Yeah.

very true. I think this might lead a little bit. Yeah.

I was going to talk about, because. Spending in mortgages and things you maybe shouldn't or can't afford ties very well into the, I love saying that universal destination of goods sounds very formal, very serious. And I will, first of all, say a quick plug to a Kansas city native podcast that I got.

Church teaching from called the city on a hill podcast, which is led by a great friend of actually ours, me and Andy, both father Andrew Mattingly, a priest here in one of the parishes of Kansas city. And he brought this up a few weeks ago at a homily. And the podcast is made up of several things.

One of which is recordings of father matting. These homies. But the the short story here and then I'll of course go more into it is the universal destination of goods essentially says that once someone and or their family has met their basic fundamental needs speaking, mostly financially here, that anything in excess.

Is technically not theirs. And what I mean by that is they have the obligation to return that excess, that abundance back to those around them. So here's where it begins. Essentially. And there's, I believe it's paragraph 24 0 2 of the catechism. If you want to dive a little bit deeper into this yourself, the catechism talks about the general point that when God created the world, he.

Gabe mankind stewardship over this abundance of resources. And he gave us labor to take advantage of and, you know, make great fruit from this abundance the abundant resources of the world. However, the main point here is that it was meant for all of humankind. It was, it was given to not one person in particular, but to.

The human race as a whole. And what's really interesting here is there's a unique balance between this principle and the course, the very fundamental, very American. We can talk about this in a second, too notion of private property and yeah. Rights of personal property and the kind of the validation or pride that we might have in. In accumulating our own wealth, working hard deserving, everything that we get. So this, this teach to the church says. That these two ideas, both, you know, personal property and earning what you've made can go hand in hand with this idea that all the resources of the world are not meant to be accumulated by any one particular person, but yet shared and meant for all of humanity.

So to kind of go one step deeper into what it looks like. Essentially once someone has, has satisfied all of their, their basic physical and spiritual needs, father manually made a great point that as humans, we are part physical spark part spiritual. So not only do we need food, water, shelter, we also need,

Andy Flattery: Okay.

Joe Ibarra: Yeah, Peace and leisure and rest. So once we fulfilled all of these basic needs and of course prudently saved for the future. Once these two items are met, we had had to do a critical job assessing what, above that. Is excess and start thinking about how we have to in an obligation, give that back to society.

So it's, it's pretty radical because one, most people think that if I've earned it and I've accumulated it in a just way than it is mine and I, can do with it, what I will do. So that's one point and then two people also think that if they choose to give money out of charity, that is an act of generosity.

But this point really says that no, it's not technically yours. Anything in excess is not technically yours and that you have an obligation to give it back. I have a few more points, but any initial thoughts, Andy, on the radical illness and the counter-cultural illness of this universal destination of goods.

Andy Flattery: I I really enjoyed the podcast and I wonder, I wonder if the answer is not, I can do with it, what I, what I could, but maybe I can do with it, what I should , my favorite part was he, you know, he talks about how he has counseled a lot of young newlyweds and how one of the things that comes up is maybe the, these new couples will say, Hey, we, you know, we've got, we've got 100, we got $200,000 of student loan debt.

Is this adjust reason for us to wait to. Conceive to wait to have children while we're in this state of trying to pay down debt. And you know, father said I'm going to say not as eloquently as he did, but he said, you know, that's not, that's not adjust reason to do it because there are plenty of people in, you know, in church communities that would love to support a young family like that.

And I think You know, as men, as Americans, it's hard to accept charity sometimes, but , we want to be good stewards. We want to help young families like that. And I think, , we've gotten away from that in the. Way that we give charity today, but he's talking about, you know, really helping those around us, like helping our individual communities, like those, those in our own, our own orbit that need help.

It's pretty radical, like you said.

Joe Ibarra: Yeah, that's good. Well, two thoughts you just kind of made me think of one is I'm pretty sure I'm not Sure. in the same podcast or not, but father Manley has talked about the notion of the self-made man and that how nothing can be more untrue and you can think about, you know, all the people. That have, you know, got you to where you are.

But maybe more importantly, more biologically think about your parents, you know, so that no one is a self-made man and that you really can't owe anything to yourself. And of course, if you take that notion of parents and grandparents, all the way to its logical end it, you know, you get to the point of God, you know, God gave us everything.

So it's tough to make the argument of I'm a self-made man. Can I have all of this because of my own accord. But the second point that you made me think of was I believe it's called the law of subsidiarity. Are you familiar with this, Andy?

Andy Flattery: Right.

Joe Ibarra: The the, the idea that if you have a need, you should first go to the people, nearest you.

For example, you know, you're in a tight spot, you need some money. You should first go to your, to your family. Maybe your sibling. If they can't help you, you go to your closest friends or maybe you go to your neighbors. If they can't help you, then you go to your greater community, your parish, your school, if they can't help you, maybe you go to your county.

And then of course, you know, state, the point is the federal government should be the last step to fulfill a need. And probably for two reasons, one it's less efficient. The further you move out. But two, I think to this point it's less personal. And so I feel like the universal destination of goods also speaks to the power of taking care of those in and around you and the fact that they might be able to take care of you as well.

Cause I think when Saint Paul was writing about this to the Corinthians, which I believe was the reason. Spurred this from father Mattingly, the people of the community were talking about how some people have excess of this and others have excess of that and how it's unfair. And I believe St. Paul was essentially saying that if you have excess.

In one thing you can give so that no one is deficient. And at the same time, if you live in this kind of community they would do the same for you in other ways. So in the modern world, you can think about, I don't know, getting help with taking care of your children and giving them rides to, I don't know, athletic programs or maybe someone's Right.

Very much a handyman in a can help you out with that home project. Very radical. I don't think this happens, you know, and at scale, but certainly an interesting exercise to think about what are the applications of this, if you really, if you really went after it.

Andy Flattery: Joe. Can I ask you a question or maybe just. Make a little bit of a challenge to this. I'm just trying to think through this myself. So one of the things that I think about sometimes when I hear people talk about this, like people kind of like in the Catholic integral, this movement is a lot of times they, they seem to kind of downplay the importance of savings.

I heard know, I heard the father say like, you want to make sure that you put a little bit away for the future.

Joe Ibarra: Nope.

Andy Flattery: when I think about, you know, a lot of the things that like human civilization finds worthwhile you know, if it's like a matter of like building a cathedral or creating a magnificent work of art or starting a business, or starting a school and like leaving a legacy for your generations, like all of those things.

Require.

Andy Flattery: Savings. And I just wonder how, how to understand savings in this context. Like, I think, you know, especially like in the modern context, you know, a lot of us, we get paid on the, on the first and the 15th. And so everything is kind of like thinking about like what your monthly expenses are and leaving a little bit left behind, but that that's kind of a modern way that.

You know, live their financial lives. You know, if you're like a, a tentmaker in biblical times, you don't, you don't get paid on the, on the first and the 15th. You know, you, you might get paid w when you finish the tent or, or if you're a fisherman, you get paid when you catch the fish and sell it at the market.

And so, yeah. So it seems to me like in that situation, like if you're in the tent making business, you might want to have savings because there might be a lot of uncertainty in that sort of business. Or there might be a lot of uncertainty when you're going to catch your, you make your next catch. So I just, that's kind of my only, my only thought is like, how do you think about savings in this context?

Joe Ibarra: Yeah.

it's a good question. I have a few thoughts on it. One is I was thinking about this from a. Kind of a practical perspective on at what point do you define your excess? Because of, of course, theoretically you could save an infinite amount because you don't know what you're going to need at some later point.

I think the way most people think about it is I'm going to save a lot during my working years so that in retirement I can give very generously and I think. I think maybe that's not the best way to go about it. If you really wanted to play this principle out. I think what someone might do is almost draw a line of, and of course, like it could increase every year or as you go through different stages of life, but at any point in time during your life, you cross that line, you have to discern what's the best need of those savings at the moment.

I think one of the pitfalls is assuming that you're going to save all this money. And at some point in retirement, that's when you're going to build your legacy of generosity, that's when you're going to build, or you're going to help build a great church. You're going to pay for the scholarship fund. You know, to really more trust in God and trust in the way things are going to work out and maybe also trust in the principle itself that if any point in time you do, let's say did too much, and you're in a pinch, you can trust that the principal will come back in your own favor. So I just think my initial thought is kind of having this, this line that you draw at any point in time, you go above the line, you think about it.

You know, moving those savings, so to speak out almost immediately. So you're not detached. I feel like the more you build up savings, the harder it's going to be for you to, to let them and go. You talk about the tentmaker and not getting paid all at once. I think the ideal, the ideal is to be in a community where people. Finished their tents on different days. And people hit their stride at different times, whether it's their business, their job. Something goes, well, I think at the same time other people are going to be on the opposite end of the spectrum. Someone's going to lose their job. Someone's going to have a tragedy.

So I think I'm not sure this answers your question. You might have to get me back on track here, but my, my general thoughts. If everyone just follows the principle at the time that it becomes appropriate for them, you don't have to think too much about it. And at any point in time, you're the one who falls on the wrong end of the spectrum.

You can trust that someone else will be on the positive end. What do you think

Andy Flattery: Yeah, no, I think it's, I think it's well said. And another thing I think it's worth pointing out is that there, there is at least in my mind, I think there's a difference between Having excess what's the word, maybe just excess money and like excess goods. So if you, if you have excess stores of grain and your neighbor is starving and there's no, there's no other sources of food in the kingdom.

Well money giving your neighbor money. Does you no good because your neighbor can't go to the store and buy any grain because there isn't any and so obviously we have, we have food in abundance today. That might be more of a biblical example, but like, I think about sometimes I'll see like oh, like in my community or something a young family might ask around on Facebook.

Hey, we've got a young family, our car just died. Does anyone have. A van sitting in the garage that they want to get rid of. And a lot of times, Joe, I'll just I'll see people like get a van for free. Cause they'll ask. And lo and behold, like somebody got an extra car lying around because we do live in a world where that, like, that kind of happens.

Like people kind of hoard these old vehicles and they don't have anything to do with them. Well, you could probably find a young family that could use it. And, good for people for asking too. Cause it's it's not always easy to do.

Joe Ibarra: No, I think that's a great example. In fact, this happened to me. I I drove an older car and I was going to inherit another old car from my grandfather and I have tried to sell it, but it would have been, you know, almost marginal. And I think this point really comes out that it is literally more valuable to give it to somebody else than to sell it.

It's like essentially, you know, 500 or a thousand dollars for, you know, a car in his last leg is way less valuable than giving someone transportation for, you know, however long. It lasts. I think that's the kind of mindset that this principle really kind of calls you to. And I think you do a good job of making the point that it's not maybe just about money.

Because father Madden, he also makes the point that it's not even just about things of material goods. Like the principle also applies to things like skills and talents. It's not. It's not helpful to accumulate to yourself some great gifts that you have, because it's almost as if the greater society has an obligation to that gift as well.

And he used the example of the great St. Thomas Aquinas, right. Who if he could just sit in a room by himself and enjoy bask and all of the intellect that he would. It given, he would be essentially robbing the rest of the world of this great gift that God gave, not just to him, but he gave to humanity.

You just gave it to humanity through Aquinas. This is true for all of us and in the work that we do, the skills that we have, the charisms that we have. So I think, you know, it's, it's probably most applicable to money, but definitely not limited to.

Andy Flattery: Yeah, it brings up something that I've, but thinking about a lot and talked about before, on podcasts written about, but just trying to wrestle with the compatibility of my Catholic faith and. Where it seems like there's a lot of aspects of retirement that , are troublesome to me. , if retirement means kind of like checking out entirely and spending a couple of decades just golfing in an isolated community in Florida.

It seems to me you're not maybe serving. Or, using your gifts in the best way where, you know, the, the, the wisest people that we have are the elderly, you know, where you've kind of like, you've lived a life, you do have a lot to offer, but if you're kind of doing this, this version of retirement it seems to me that that there's a lot to be.

Asked for there. So I don't know. I think about that a lot. It's not only that maybe my generation doesn't respect our elders, but also to some extent, like the elderly have sometimes checked out. If that, if that's what they're going forward in retirement, that I just say something heretical Joe, in terms of

Joe Ibarra: No, I think the, I think it's pretty, it's pretty spot on. I think you say heretical. I think maybe the better

Andy Flattery: as, as a CFP. Yeah. It's

Joe Ibarra: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, the term very counter-cultural very much against the general rules of you know, financial planning, but I think a great challenge, I think oftentimes at least in both the moral sense, but also the practical.

A lot of times, if you see everyone going one direction, it's a good indicator to kind of say, Hmm, maybe, maybe this isn't the best thing. Yeah, These a typical retirement to where you build up enough wealth to live off of. And you check out is a kind of, one of those things where you might kind of raise your hand and say, I don't know, like, is this really the best way?

Because I think, I think it's a challenge. A lot of people have who have done such a great job. And this is definitely not only admirable, but virtuous to, to work hard and to save and to really defer that. That satisfaction of spending all of your money, but honestly it could be done to such an extreme that you find yourself at a relatively young age with enough money to live off of comfortably for the rest of your life.

And so the challenge then is. Finding through, you know, lots of thought and reflection what it is am I going to do now? And to your point that that might be contributing to society or to your family in some way. But also I think back to the point of the universal destination of goods, it probably, for some people requires a lot of thinking around how am I going to.

To give this money back. How am I going to strategically and impactfully and joyfully give this, this wealth that I've accumulated over my lifetime back in, in a profound way. And by profound, I mean, both for the people or organizations that you're giving to, but also profoundly for yourself, you know, one of the greatest things about charities and makes you, makes you feel great.

And I think more and more people are wanting to do that. Now while they're alive and they can see and interact with the beneficiaries as opposed to passing away and having a check from your state, go to somebody. So I think that's a great challenge, definitely heretical in the financial planning world, but I think a good challenge, nevertheless.

Andy Flattery: but the thing to affirm about financial planning of course, is that what you're trying to do is have intentionality about what you want your money to do for you. So if you really think hard about What you, what most people want retirement to look like? The reality is what I described as what people have kind of fallen into without intentionality.

But if you sit down and really kind of plan it out, most people want to have meaningful lives and they want to be able to give back in retirement. It's just a matter of making that happen. And and sometimes we fall into the trap of just kind of, you know, going with the flow, going with the stream if you will.

And so that's the thing too, to affirm about financial planning is you can think about it now and then make sure you take the steps to make that, make that goal happen.

Joe Ibarra: Exactly right. I think I think I think you summed it up well, that's perfect.

Andy Flattery: Well, good. So yeah, w we will put the link to father. Mattingly's talk about the universal order of goods in the show notes. And then I think what we'll do, Joe is just wrap this up with some recommendations. Do you have any good recommendations beyond beyond that podcast?

Joe Ibarra: Good. A good question. I think at a, at, at first glance, I would say, please go check out the podcast in general. As I said, it's made up. Some of the recorded homilies of father Madden Lee, but also it's a young adult, a postulate, a young adult ministry in Kansas city that also has several great stories of, of young Catholics who have had great conversions or who are living out their faith in a very profound, intentional way.

So I think maybe for this week, I'll just point you there for some inspiration and some good some good Orthodox teachings.

Andy Flattery: So city on the hill, Kansas city is the podcast. And it's yeah, I echo that it's in my it's in my lineup to I subscribe. I listened to all the good stories and the great homilies by father Mattingly. You know, My recommendation for this month Joe is a little bit more lowbrow.

So I, I'm still on a quest as a young dad to like find what I think is like good family entertainment and by good family entertainment, I don't just mean like wholesome stuff for the kids, but stuff that I literally can enjoy with my children as a family. That's kind of like my ideal, my ideal goal.

And I just found this film that I had heard about, but I always assumed that it was not that great because it's like 46% on rotten tomatoes, but it came out in 2002. It's got a star studded cast and it's called a rain of fire. you seen it?

Joe Ibarra: I have not.

Andy Flattery: Do you know what I'm talking about?

Joe Ibarra: I do. I'm a, I'm familiar and I've heard it, but not seen

Andy Flattery: Okay. So it must have come out, you know, after Lord of the rings, where they were trying to you know, put more dragon movies out there because it is a dragon movie and some of the CGI is, you know, it's, it's very 2002, which is probably partially why it. It got such low reviews, but I also think it's because it's very virtuous.

So it's like a school kind of hero film, especially if you're like a young boy, there's a good, a hero's journey for the Christian bale character. Who's kind of the main character and the young boy that Christian bale has adopted. And he's like the , father figure. So it's very virtuous.

It's wholesome, but it's also like an action flick cause they're killing dragons. And it's got a really star-studded cast. So Christian bales in it Matthew McConaughey is in it and Gerard Butler is in it too. So,

Joe Ibarra: Wow. That is packed.

Andy Flattery: yeah, so like I recommend it. I would say if you're looking for a good film to watch with like your young boys.

It's a, it's got action. It's not too violent. And it's it's got good virtuous heroes too. So rain of fire is is my recommendation of the month.

Joe Ibarra: That's awesome. I'm also onboard with you. There's no reason why doing things with your kids. Can't be fun for the both of you. I think it's a great challenge, both for movies, but also you know, activities. It should be fun for everyone. So good to good catch for finding one. That's good for both.

Andy Flattery: well, good man. Well, Joe. Hey, good job. First time out on the podcast how does it feel? You feel like you've, we've broken you in good.

Joe Ibarra: Yes, I think so it helps talking to a friend. I'm glad we, you and I haven't spoken in a bit. So it felt like catching up with an old friend, which is exactly what it was so happy to be here with you. I think we did. All right.

Andy Flattery: great. Yeah. And you and I are gonna have lunch on Friday to, to continue this. But yeah. Thanks for joining the Catholic money mastermind podcast and we will see you next month. God bless.