Catholic Investing Series: John Mueller of Dana Investments [PODCAST]

Michael Acosta: Welcome to the Catholic money mastermind podcast. My name is Michael Acosta. I'm a certified financial planner here out of the Charlotte North Carolina area. I am one of the active members of part of the Catholic financial planner network. And today, one of the topics that we're going to be focusing in on is morally responsible investing and we have a great individual that's going to be joining us a participant today. John Mueller of Dana and Doug. So, you know, John, why don't you go ahead and give the listeners a sense of who you are beyond, you know, the professional buyer, but you know, where did you grow up and where do you live now and why is morally responsible investing? So.

John Mueller: Yeah. So, so thank you, Michael. Again for those listening my name is John Miller. So a little bit about me. I am a father of three We all struggle with ways to describe what we do in life, but I really kind of put myself as I believe my jobs kind of go in the following order and you know, one, one a and one B as husband and father.

And then behind their sort of employee, right? I think my parents or my father maybe said it best. You know, maybe the greatest lasting legacy I'll have is my children and the impact that they have. So I'm focused on. That that maybe gives you a little bit of insight into sort of my personality.

I grew up, I'm a, I'm the youngest of four. I have three older sisters grew up along the Mississippi river on the Western side of the state of the great state of Wisconsin. Finding my way as a young adult over to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, where. Reside currently in a suburb. I went to school at Marquette university in downtown Milwaukee where I met my wife many years actually after going to school.

So I guess I w I, I always kind of say. I'm born raised and educated Catholic. I went to Catholic schools throughout grade school and high school. My children currently attend one themselves. You know, my mom always likes to joke and had hopes that I might be the first American born Pope.

I think she's happy with where I'm at today. Although I didn't fulfill that, that wish of hers. I think she's, I think she's happy with where I'm at. So you know, that that's me in a nutshell as far as. Sort of my life. I mean, I'm a pretty active guy, like to get my workouts in it's my mental health.

But, but I spent a lot of time with my, with my wife and my three kids. So, you know, why is, why is morally responsible investing or faith-based investing as it's been termed to so important to me? I will say that, you know, I've been here at Dana for now 10 years. And when I first got here, I hadn't really had a lot of insights into it.

To be honest, when I got here, I was kind of like, yeah, I'm not sure how this is going to work out. Despite me being you know, a Catholic and a practicing Catholic, it just, wasn't something I had really thought about, thought about much in my career from other other stops. I think it's, you know, so important.

Because I really think that investing is sort of an individual approach. Right. And while while many of us might have different reasons for doing things I think there are some of us who have a great you know, are really guided by our. And if that's something that's incredibly important to you you know, I think you should have the opportunity at the same point in time to act on those, those thoughts through, through different components and this one being, you know, your investment portfolio.

I also think it's important because you know, you can impact change, right? You can impact change with your dollar. You know, it's a lot easier to impact change with larger dollar amounts which is where, you know, said institutional investors impact change. But you'll see it even today, you know, you can't kind of read a financial publication without something regarding, you know, ESG investing or some type of.

Values-based investing. So obviously it's growing significantly and I think, you know, you should give people the opportunity to invest along what they feel is most important. So.

Michael Acosta: No, absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing that and, and, you know, giving us a little bit about your personal life, as well as your professional and, you know, huge stakes to try to feel fill that, that That, that goal right by your mother potentially being the first American Pope, right. It's really setting the stakes high, but you know, I would agree with you.

What you're doing now is life-changing and meaningful in so many ways. When we look at the. That you're offering to both institutional and retail investors. Right. And we're going to, we're going to scratch that a little bit today. But you also touched on, you know, your family, you know, three children.

And so right now, my wife and I, we have two young daughters, four and two, and we're expecting a third child in November. So I might have to reach out to you off the podcast just to get some pointers on, you know, how to go from, from Mandy fence to zone and, and raising three children. But also, you know, mental, achy.

Thank you. But also focusing on your, your wellbeing, right? Your mental and physical health, like over the course of the last 20 months, I think we, as a country and we, as a religious beings, Christians have had to deal with a lot, right. A lot of, of turmoil, discomfort and it's and uncertainty really. And so it's, you know, what are we doing to help.

Improve or wellbeing, whether it be mentally or physically. And I appreciate you sharing that. So, you know, let me ask you the next question. Why do you think, and you touched on this a little bit, but why do you think it's imperative for people of faith to invest in alignment with their values or moral compass?

Like, like when they do that, do you think they're giving up something, whether it be, you know, they're, they're improving their morality, but giving up performance, or do you think that you're able to balance. If not achieve both in an efficient.

John Mueller: Yeah. So I think you know, first off, when you talk about sort of balancing the two between, you know, investing along your moral compass and then you know, not necessarily sacrificing return something we'll touch on a little bit, but. You know, why do I think it's important for people of faith to, to invest along their moral compass?

It's going to go back to something that I touched on a little bit earlier. I mean, I think investing is an individual decision and a component in life. Right. I'm gonna run parallel with your investing world and, you know, sir, or your investing journey and sort of your favorite faith journey. Right.

So not everyone has the same thing. Right. So it may not be evident to them early on that this is where they're at. I mean, we've heard stories of, you know, different, different individuals in life who, you know, if you're born into a family who maybe a practicing Catholic family, it may not be something that you may just be going through and checking the box.

Right. You may not truly understand it. And that part of that is because as a young person, you're not necessarily. Finding your, your balance yet, right? Sometimes you need something to happen in life to understand that, Hey, there is a higher power and there is somebody I can talk to or, you know, think about, or have my have my prayers with.

Right. So I parallel the two because investing is the same way. Right. When we. Are taught reasons for investing at a young age, generally, a recent, you know, generally more, more recently it's been when you're a college graduate and you get that first job where you get your first job out of high school or whatever it may be, and you have the opportunity to put it into a company sponsored retirement plan or whatever.

At that point, you know, your thought process. How can I, how can I pull something away to help, you know, invest for down the road? Right. And so you know, there's multiple reasons for investing, but many of them center around sort of growing your assets for retirement or other financial goals that component of aligning your faith with your, with your investments.

To me, actually can give somebody sort of an upper hand. What is generally a very difficult thing for an investor to do, which is stay, stay on track with a disciplined approach. Right? So if your investment goals are solely return, right, you will, as I'm sure you've had this conversation with clients, as well as we all try to do and have, have conversations They can get, they can get off track because of the shiny new object that's out there.

Right. But if you align your investment goals along with your moral compass I think it allows you to, you know, sort of stay on track, right? There's something that's pulling you versus, you know, always looking for the newest, hottest item. Right. You know, so I think that that's an opera hand that it provides.

I also think, again, it goes back to just it's it's about you. It's really about you, the individual investor. You touched on it a little bit. Prior to us having this conversation, but, you know, each individual investor might have a different view of what, what is, or what isn't morally or acceptable as far as an investment portfolio.

And so I think it's important because if your money and at the end of the day you know, your making a great, you're making a great sacrifice by, you know, taking your hard earned dollars and placing those hard-earned dollars behind. Yeah a company, whether it's a product culture or whatever it may be, and you should be, you should be totally aligned with that and make yourself, you should feel good about the decisions you're making.

Michael Acosta: Correct? Correct. And I would say. Something that's some missile listeners may not be aware of. Is that free for your firms specifically over at Dana, you know, you guys offer really various offerings where I various avenues to get invested morally. And one of the strategies that you offer is a hundred percent individual stocks.

So, you know, in that case, Some advisers that have access to these strategies may be able to add an additional layer of screening on top of what you guys are already doing internally through your own process when identifying companies, which we'll talk about. And so similar to what you mentioned, that's where I think it becomes a decision for the individual investor, the retail, and then.

To discern on their own. Okay. Well, based on what, you know, these companies that have already gone through a rigorous screening process, do any of the. Maybe not aligned with your specific morality, right? Your interpretation of scripture, your interpretation of the catechism, your interpretation of you know, the S CCB and, and what they have to offer, because I think there's still very much a gray area.

And, you know, even though Catholicism is one of the largest, if not the largest Christian based religion in the entire world, It's not black and white and there's still some uncertainty right. Of, of, of what we do or do not believe in our practice. And I think it all stems at the top with, with who's leading us, which I think might be a podcast topic for another day.

Maybe we'll have you on that. Cause we were talking about that prior to jumping on, but I agree with what you're saying and I appreciate you sharing that. And, and that kind of takes me to the next question. So my understanding and you can correct me if I'm wrong. There are three dimensions, really two values based investing.

Okay. So to my knowledge, it's avoid, embrace and engage. So can you provide a brief explanation of the, each dimension in your own words and discuss how your firm's strategy supports one or more of these dimensions? And if you guys include additional dimensions,

John Mueller: Yeah, so great question. Because one of the things that I find when talking to investors or advisors, one of the things that I find so difficult for individuals is there's a lot of interchangeable terminology that people are using to describe values. investing ESG, whatever it may be. And so I'll kind of run down a brief explanation sort of on each point that you, you make on avoid, embrace and engage, because I would agree those are three dimensions of what you see most typically in, in sort of these type of portfolios.

Right. And so. When you stay at void I think avoidance avoidance or exclusionary portfolios, right? That means, you know, you're avoiding companies or products whose, whose products or services are sort of deemed morally objectionable by the, by the investor. Right. So that type of investing was the primary offering early on, sort of, as this came out, I'll give you a quick backstory, try to keep it short.

You know, we've been doing this for almost 20 years, over 20 years. Actually I, one of our first clients was a group of a religious order, a female religious order out of, out of out of the Midwest. And we had managed to generic portfolio for them, nothing that was, you know, labeled faith-based or whatever.

And they had said, Hey, we like what you do, but we'd like for you to integrate. Our money, but avoid certain securities, avoid certain companies that we don't necessarily agree with products or things that they're doing. Right. And so that therefore was the catalyst for us to kind of get into this space.

The lead portfolio manager himself is Catholic. So he kind of understood what they were talking about, but to almost flip back to your point earlier in my point about individual decisions the. The religious order, you know, we kind of went through what some exclusions or avoidances would be. And we got down to sort of the idea behind alcohol and tobacco stocks.

And while they were conflicted about excluding or including those, because they would say that they are not, you know, they didn't want to include them because they aren't necessarily. Aligned with, you know, the moral teachings of what they believe. They were quick to point out that they were sort of hypocritical in the fact that many of them would at the time, you know, partake in such activities.

So avoidance exclusionary is generally just excluding a list of companies or products that you don't want to invest in. second part would be embraced or I would deep inclusionary portfolios. It's essentially the opposite of the avoidance where an investors embraces or buys companies whose products, services, or culture are morally aligned with the investor.

And I've used the term culture now a couple of times because you know, that is. That is one point that I think a lot of people forget or they lose is that a company's culture is also imperative to you know, the end investor and what type of what type of portfolio or holding you might have.

Right. And so the third one is engaged, right? And engagement takes on a bit of both. And in most cases, this is done more on a larger or an institutional scale. And engagement is where an investor is advocating for change at a company based on a position as a stakeholder. You know, the term stakeholder has been used much more frequently when we talk about this space, but what you're doing and engagement is you're interacting with management board, where you're attempting to get.

Change facilitated in the company based off of your position as an owner and a stakeholder right now. The interesting thing about that is if you're engaging trying to make a change, technically you're not avoiding, right? So maybe you don't agree with XYZ company policy environmental, environmental disclosure.

Right. And so you've potentially you know, in an avoidance portfolio, you would not own that company because of that. You wouldn't own them in an inclusionary portfolio because they're not really embracing anything, but part of the engagement side is your wanting to get them to change or make a change.

I will say from, from From a value-based faith-based perspective. Going back to the caveat earlier religious female orders, specifically Catholic nuns. I've been have been Brock's in this space. And when I say rocks, I mean, they are, they're heavily engaged. They are, they know more on some of these corporate topics and then.

Some others who are in the business know and they're definitely leaders in the space. Matter of fact, they've taught us quite a bit through different organizations. We're part of, it's always, maybe my favorite part of any, you know, sort of. Investing network Catholic investing network. That we're part of our faith based investing network.

That we're part of. I always learn something from, from the sisters and it's, it's, it's quite, quite eyeopening, frankly. So, you know, I would say. Our strategy. Having evolved over 20 years, we definitely started as an exclusionary portfolio because that's all that we really understood. Right. But as we've evolved we include, you know, there are exclusionary aspects to our portfolio word of vacations, contraceptions, embryonic stem, cell research, production of those manufacturing of those distribution in a certain, a certain form.

So there's exclusions in our portfolio. But we also have. Are looking for companies who are embracing change. So we're, you know, we're embracing companies who are trying to maybe pivot from a place they were today. Or they were a while back and knowing that, you know, their path forward is a different path and they need to make changes.

And we definitely get in on the engagement side as well. Which is really where you kind of start to define, you know, a fully integrated portfolio that that encompasses sort of the faith-based or the environmental topics or social topics, you know, around human justice and things like that.

That's really where we sit today as a fully sort of integrated solution for, for false clients.

Michael Acosta: Got it. Got, no thank you for going in great detail in how those three dimensions are tied into how you guys manage and design your strategies. And so I know that you your firm prides itself on investing in companies whose products and practices help make the world a better place, right? Like that's really the intention of Socially responsible or values-based investing.

And in practical terms, what are your thoughts on how portfolio managers actually actually decide which companies stay at? In a particular investment strategy, understanding that, you know, you guys being Dana investment advisors offer both stock portfolios and mutual funds. Like I know you guys have a great piece that I've referenced many times in client meetings regarding the United States conference of Catholic bishops at USC.

There tenant. And, you know, you touched on it a little bit previously that the main focus is, you know, protecting human life, promoting human dignity, reducing arms production, pursuing economic justice, protecting the environment and encouraging corporate responsibility, like at a high level. That sounds great.

And you know, it's going to continue to be a common theme. It's very gray, right? Because then, you know, I'm kind of getting ahead of myself, but it's very gray because. Indirectly, some of these companies could be supporting through donations or in some other form you know, other, other services or companies that don't necessarily align with that.

Right. So, you know, I know that's where you guys set the foundation of your process, but talk to me about that screening process more in depth when you design both your stock portfolios and the mutual funds that.

John Mueller: Yeah. So, you know, you kinda, you kind of got to it with the way the question was asked, but let's just be honest. It's tough, right? It's tough for an investment manager to. Build a solution or offer a solution that appeases all, all faith based investors and this case, if we're talking Catholic, all Catholic investors.

And again, part of that is because things are open for interpretation, right? You know, the United States Catholic conference of bishops, their white paper along the investment guidelines that came out in the early nineties and then was. We've refreshed in the early two. Thousands is currently going, undergoing a review right now.

You know, by the same, by the same conference the world's changed in 20 years, right. Significantly. And so they need to sort of update those, those principles now, how do we tackle it right in practical terms? So. We like many other investment shops have outside research providers the faith-based ESG type investing today as open a entirely new form of research where there are, there are specific providers that are providing information based off of a litany of different topics.

You know, as far as products A number of number of. Minorities in management positions, whether there's one other there's females that are represented, represented in the management positions, all sorts of different topics that are, that are of interest to, to investors today. And so we, we have, again, going back to 20 year history of being in this space, we've kind of grown up with some of these providers of research.

And so we understand where there's maybe. In some versus others. So we contract with, with a good number, a handful, I think around 10 or 11 different providers who provide us some of this information and we know what we can or can't include in our portfolio from a hard standpoint, you know, the exclusions and they'll flag those.

And then we, we have sort of a a starting point to define, you know, What next makes it into the portfolio? One thing I will say about the way Dana and our team manages portfolios is while the morally responsible part is a significant part of what we're doing at the end of the day we are making a decision based off of.

Financial projections of that stock or that company over the longterm. And so we start on the front end understanding who is a universe of investible securities. We work through our fundamental analysis. We look at opportunities in places where we might have might have holes in the portfolio today.

What needs to be replaced. And you know, generally, you know, a financial financial metric is what's going to make the decision for us because we've already done sort of the front end research as to whether or not the company's deemed morally responsible through our. Our ESG work. And you know, if all things being equal, if company a and company B have the same financial background and metrics if we see one that's got, you know maybe a little bit of a tweak and sort of a, a faith-based component, whether it's having to deal with.

Social aspect and, you know, maybe maybe off shore factories or things like that, what are the working conditions like? We'll, we'll obviously go with the one that's got a better track record in that space. So again, you know, there's a, there's a front end application of understanding, you know, what all these companies are involved in through different research providers and our own, our own proprietary research.

And then at the end of the day You know, building a portfolio comes down to, you know, building a, building a basket of stocks that will work well together to achieve a a desired rate of return.

Michael Acosta: Right. And that's really the balance. I think all investors and advisors are seeking, right? Whether it's to provide to the client or to obtain as a client is, is a great. Return that's measured based on risk. And we're just taking it a step further by making sure that it aligns with you know, our moral belief system.

So it, in the way that you presented that leads me to the next question. And it's somewhat of a nuance, but you know, in your mind, talk to me about patronage and ownership and whether or not these are the same thing. And if they're not, how do they differ? Because, you know, when I look at the definition of patronage, it's, you know, support given or, you know, the power to control appointments to office or the right to privileges, right?

So that's patronage and from an ownership standpoint, it's the actor, state awry of possessing something. So how does that tie into the way that you design these strategies and, and I, and I, I'm just kind of scratching this a little bit deeper.

John Mueller: Yeah. So those were some, some good definitions, some deep definitions. You know, when I look at patronage versus ownership, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a tough one. Right? So obviously patronage patronage is you know, more of the. I'm I'm using your service. I'm, I'm visiting your stores. I'm utilizing your technology, right.

We're ownership, you know, in, in a lot of cases is sort of I own a share or a percentage of your company, right? Cause you're a publicly traded company. Are they the same thing?

By definition. They're not I mean, they are not the same thing. Right. You know, you can own a security or own a share of a company, but you may not be a patron of that company. One might ask if you believe enough in the company has a secure. Why do you not believe enough in the product or the service they're offering?

Which is a conversation, you know, you might have in your own head. But it could be at some point in time, well, Hey, their product or service doesn't fit. My retail need, or me the individual's need. Patronage is obviously kind of going around the lines of, Hey company X, Y, Z might be You know, involved in a product that I, I don't, I don't believe should be offered.

And while I'm not using that product, per se, I'm buying a different product from their shelves. Right. So generally I look at that sort of as a retail outlet. Right? So You know, per particular names, but let's say there's a convenience store, right. That might sell alcohol or tobacco. And you, and you personally are, you know, a patronage of that store because you need to get something else there.

Right. You don't necessarily agree with their decision to sell those products. But you're still, you know, you're, there's still an outlet for you to get the service or the product you need. You know, there's, there's obviously a great difference, right. You know, how you handle it, again, comes down to sort of your personal beliefs and the way you want to be.

You want to be thought of, right. So. We'll have questions surrounding different outlets. You may have pharmacies in their, in their stores. And obviously with pharmacies, there's the potential to fulfill prescriptions for for different different aboard applications you know, whether, whether it's a birth control or whatever it may be.

And while we don't agree with that, we will, at times then determine a percentage of revenue that that company is generating from said sales or said service. And, you know, a lot of firms in our position will have something, they call it revenue thresholds on things. And you know, if it's not. Large portion of their business.

They're not a manufacturer of it. They're not a sole distributor of it, or they're not necessarily a component that's needed for the manufacturing portion of it. You know, we, we look at it as, you know, ownership of a stock, you know, is, is okay when, when the, the overall of. Percentage is lower.

Right. So, you know, it's a tough one. And, and again, you highlighted it earlier. You know, we offer a lot of different solutions that Dana separate accounts, separately managed accounts, mutual funds. But the reality is in a separately managed account you know, you can. You can go ahead and obviously articulate to your here, your advisor.

You know, there are some names or companies that I just can't hold for, for reasons, you know, that are personal that, and, and we can accommodate those. And, and those are things, the benefit of a separate account in this space. So, I don't know. Does that answer sort of the way you were thinking about it, Michael

Michael Acosta: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, I think you did a great job of addressing that and you know, it's, this is where I go back to saying that it's very gray, like even within the faith itself Based on how we practice and interpret not only the, the catechism, but just the scripture and just the teachings of the church in general, because you might have companies that fit the bill across the board, and the ways that you're screening, they offer a charitable donation match mechanism to their employees, and maybe one of their employees. Isn't Christian or isn't a practicing Catholic. And so they want to, you know, make contributions to a company or an entity that doesn't necessarily align with the Catholic faith. Well, if that company's matching based on their offering, then are they directly participating in that? And so if you're investing in that company, does that mean that you're directly participating in that if that's not their service model, we're offering that they set up for them.

Right. So it's very gray and very slippery quickly. And that's what. Like you mentioned, you have to be able to discern that. And that's why there's a big difference between owning a basket of underlying stocks within a mutual fund, which is, you know, for, for simplicity sake and investment vehicle versus having a separately managed account or sleeve or whatever jargon you want to use, where the portfolio that you're invested in is individual stock holdings.

Because then you can take it a little bit further from a discernment standpoint and where you're at in your faith. Because, you know, just, just using pre pew research as an example, something like, you know I want to say the percentage amount, I think only like 40% of Catholics actually believe 30 or 40% of Catholics actually believe that that the Eucharist is the body and flesh of Christ during mass.

So that's a big component of our Catholic faith. So. You know, does that mean that they're wrong? Does that mean that we're right. And that's another conversation for another day that I'm not going to dive into. But I, I think that helps support what you're saying.

John Mueller: You know, so I, I just, this is this is a personal ism here. I don't, I don't want to use my own name. So I'm talking to in third person, it's the personal is I'm here. I mentioned earlier as my, as my, sort of as my intro I was born and raised and went to Catholic schools. And as you know, you and I talked about having young children I'm as I mentioned, the youngest of a four, so I have older nieces and nephews.

You know, I recall when I was a freshman in high school within the first couple of weeks, Sitting on a Bleacher and Jim on a August day where a taut, you don't want to really be there. You'd be doing other things. And our freshmen advisor teach. Was a guy who had been teaching in the Catholic schools for years.

Matter of fact, he had my father as a student. And my dad is not 10 years older than me. He's 33 years older than me. So there was obviously a difference there. Right. And I remember him sitting us down and telling us, you know, cause high school is a big thing in kids. Kids can be. Let's face it. Kids can be cruel.

It's just the way it is. And I'll never forget him sitting there. I'm looking at all of us and saying, I will not tolerate anyone here picking on anybody because no one has made you judge, jury and executioner at any point in your life. And I kind of think of that on a regular basis and I, you could parallel it to sort of.

The decision of what is deemed or not deemed acceptable, right by the buyer, by a faith based investor. Who am I to say to you, Michael? That the way you interpret your faith is wrong. I'm not there. I can't be there. You know what I mean? Like, and I think you would say the same thing. I mean, you and I. I have a different faith journey.

You and I have a different view potentially on some things, but what I will say, we probably all come to the same view at some point in time is let's just be good people. Right. And so, you know, it's, it's tough. And I, that goes a little bit off topic, but I think it also tells you a little bit more about Being affirm.

Right. Because we're small. We, we, you know, we are sort of a family network here of people who, you know, really do what we believe is best. At the end of the day for, for our, for our investors and our, our employees. So side note, tangent, whatever you want to call it I'll apologize. But that nugget of.

You know, nobody's judge, jury and executioner that's. Yeah. I mean, I guess we'd probably all agree that that's that role is held by sort of one person. And we know who, that we know who that person is.

Michael Acosta: Correct. Correct. No. And I appreciate you sharing that. I think it adds additional color and that was a great example of, you know, how we go through this process and how we discern it both at the institutional level, but also the retail investor level. So we we've been, you know, we've been having this conversation now for about 40 minutes and I think you've successfully made the case.

Morally responsible investing is, is something that's very important to society today to investors today. And in many cases is wise. If that's what we're seeking. Now, I know there are going to be some skeptics that are listening today who are concerned. Investment performance or return on their investment and whether or not they're sacrificing that for their mortality.

Okay. Now, do you believe that it is possible to hold an investment position that is good for society and meets or beats its.

John Mueller: Yeah, so without getting myself in any compliance trouble I do believe that it is. Possible, but I think more importantly, there's research out there these days that has published and published and shows that it's, it's more possible. There's a caveat as there is with everything. Right. And that goes to time horizon you know, I don't think that.

You know, the minute while while many investors would, would, would like it to be where the minute you decide to get into a certain strategy or certain holding is the time period that it automatically starts to, you know, outperform everything else. But yes, given time, especially in the fact that.

Morally morally responsible or faith-based type investing has to do with sort of a long-term sort of sustainable practices. I mean, I think one of the things that gets lost on faith based investing is that it's just about. The hot button topics that you hear about, you know, a board of education's contraception, embryonic stem, cell research, you know, the statin stocks, right.

But there's a big portion of faith-based investing that has to do with social justice issues. And those are generally issues that are deemed, you know, making sure a company has a longterm sustainable future. And so, you know, again given time, yes. I do believe. That this is something that, you know, can lead to competitive performance.

And at the end of the day, I will always advise or remind people you know, You should have a name. You should have a number in your head, right? You've done a plan. You're a financial planner. You've done a plan for a client, you know, what you need to achieve over a period of time. That doesn't mean you need to achieve that number every year.

You just need to achieve an average that gets you there. Right. So you can't look at it and into that. You have to look at it in a much larger scope and, and it, and it can't, it can't happen. And with time it should.

Michael Acosta: Right. No, I, I think that, that makes perfect sense. And you're right. I mean, it's about expected return on the analysis and the financial plan that you're working on with clients or with your advisor as well as the actual return itself. And. You know, I'm a firm believable believer in behavioral finance and the psychology that goes into managing money and dealing with personal finance.

And everyone's got a different outlook on the markets, especially based on when you enter the markets, right. Someone who entered the markets around 2008 might be a little bit more pessimistic than someone who entered the markets in, you know, 2012, 2013, they might be a little bit more optimistic. If you will just based on the returns that they experienced and were able to achieve initially.

And long-term so I think that was perfect. Now for someone who's just starting to learn and, and peel the onion back about values based investing or morally responsible investing, what additional resources can you recommend beyond this podcast episode? Where, where should people go to, to start to, to do their own investigator.

John Mueller: Yeah. So well, I'll, I'll, I'll plug you know, you and, and your, your group. I spent a little bit of time. On your Catholic financial planners network website. You know, that's a great place and it dovetails into sort of my other, my other sort of suggestions. There are a lot of organizations out there.

Some of them are regional, some of them are national. You can find organizations like something called USA. Where you can learn more about sort of responsible investing. And I'm using that as a, as a, as a umbrella term that can encompass morally faith-based. But you know, you've got, we've got a network a regional network called seventh generation interfaith coalition.

It's, it's a great little group of religious like-minded investors. You know, there's, there's obviously places like data providers, like morning star that provide information. You know, but, but really I think you know, the simple use of. Of the technology that's at our fingertips can help you sort of understand what it is.

And, and you mentioned it too, and I'd be, I'd be, I'd be wrong. Not to sort of recommend or mentioned the us the United States conference of Catholic bishops. So the white paper that is. Investing along your faith guidelines again, it was published in 2003. I can tell you not only from press articles, but from knowing someone who is involved That they are in the process of reviewing that document.

There's a potential that we'll see some, some new information coming out from them back in or in the in the fourth quarter of this year. And you know, that's a good place to kind of understand some things too. And then, you know it's okay to. you know, ask yourself to what do you want from it?

Right. What's your goal with your faith based or your value based investing? Mandate. So.

Michael Acosta: Perfect. No, thank you. I appreciate you sharing that in, in, in your spot on again, it's, it's all about your personal discernment and your personal faith journey and how fire, how on fire. You're living your life, right? How on fire? You're living your Catholic faith. So. I really, really appreciate your time today and joining us on the Catholic money mastermind show.

And also look forward to having you back on again, in the near future, potentially on discussing a different topic. We'd love to be able to have you back, or maybe even doing a round table with some other faith-based money managers, investment providers. So before I let you go, though, can you offer any parting thoughts regarding today's conversation or just something that you feel.

It's very, very important to understand when going down this journey as an investor.

John Mueller: Yeah. So I mean, my part in my first part I thought would be, you know, thank you very much for having me. I hope everybody did get something from this. You know, I, I think it's important for people to understand. I hope I didn't take too long or talk too much. As far as, you know, a final parting thought with individuals you know, remember the dollars that you're investing in or your doubt. And decisions that you make should be the decisions that you're most comfortable with. And so it's your, it's your hard work that, that that gathered those dollars and you should have some input into, you know, The way that those, those dollars are invested. But just like if you go to the doctor and they have a plan for you people like Michael or your other advisors you know, I've done a lot of work and studied really hard to develop a great understanding about plans and so use them as your guide but make sure that you articulated.

Your personal desires in, in the journey

Michael Acosta: Perfect. Now I appreciate you sharing that. And, and you know, the one thing I tell or remind clients all the time is that there's four things that I can promise them as their financial planner. Right. The first one is I'm always going to do what's in their best interest. Because, you know, I'm a fiduciary, but also that's my moral character.

Secondly they're not always going to like the recommendations that I've made, just like a medical professional. You might not like the diagnosis or the treatment that's being offered. And ultimately you have the final say in what you want to do. Number three, go back to number one. And number four at the end of the day, it's your money.

It's your decision. We'll cater the plan to meet your goals and your decisions. But my responsibility is to educate you. So that you can understand the opportunity cost that's at hand. So I think that ties into that. And I really appreciate you sharing that. And I guess lastly, where can people find out more information about you, you know, Dana investment advisors?

I know your website is probably the first place that people will go. It's Dana, investment.com. But where else can they go to get more information?

John Mueller: Yeah, so the website's a great place to get it. You know, obviously we have a secondary website. That's Dana funds.com. There's some great information there on a blog that talks about different topics on a weekly basis. You can follow any one of us who follow our company on LinkedIn. We push material out there.

There, there's plenty of offerings that your advisors can provide to you, whether it's, you know, information on our strategies or people. And then, you know, don't hesitate if you find us online and, you know, you want to talk I, I've never met a phone call that I've, that I haven't taken yet. So that that's it.

Michael Acosta: Perfect. Perfect. Well, I greatly appreciate your time today. John look forward to speaking with you again soon and hope you have a blessed day. Thank you for.

John Mueller: All right, Michael. Thank you. And thanks to everybody. Who's listened. Take care.