Catholic Investing Series: Eventide Funds [PODCAST]

Deb Meyer: Hi, I'm Jen Meyer and I'm here with the Catholic money mastermind podcast. We're so excited to have you join us today. We have a very special guest Jason Meyer, who's the executive director of even tide center for faith and investing. And I'm also joined by fellow Catholic financial planners network member.

Then Martec then do you want to say quick?

Ben Martinek: Hi, everyone. It's good to see you all again. Thanks for joining us on this very exciting podcast. So we'll leave you to take it from there, debt, but very excited about what we have to share or what's in store with us, with our interview, with Jason, from Eventbrite.

Deb Meyer: great. All right. Well, Jason, thank you. And welcome to Catholic money mastermind. Could you give listeners a little bit of a sense of who you are beyond any. Professional bio at even tide. Where did you grow up? What do you do? Where do you live now? Why is morally responsible investing so important to.

Jason Myhre: sure. Well, Hey, thanks for having me on. It's a, it's a pleasure to, to get, to spend some time with you. So I'm Jason and I work in the world of investing. It was not always that way. I grew up in Florida and went to the university of Florida where I studied engineering and I was a, one of those classic examples of struggling to find my way into the working world.

And so after a couple of false starts, I found myself working with a group of Christian believers on starting a mutual fund company that was aiming to.

offer. Investment products that would help Christians live out their faith in the way they invest in the kinds of companies that they were investing in and profiting from.

So I'm sure we'll, we'll get into that in a bit more detail, but yeah, this really matters to me because I I just barely make the cutoff for being a millennial. And I'm someone who is very motivated by.

Ben Martinek: Okay.

Jason Myhre: A vision of life and my passions and wanting to have my, my work life means something and to add up to something and to make a significant contribution to the world in some way.

And so I found a lot of purpose and meaning in this topic of investing where I feel like for many, it can be a kind of a black box and feel disconnected from our lives. Really helping people to navigate the world of investing with integrity and faith is something that's deeply meaningful.

Ben Martinek: Well, thanks, Jason, for sharing that bit about your background, there's a couple of things that come to mind. I mean, one I'd like to explore a little more deeply, just the intersection of faith and investing and why, why we feel that it should be representative of values. I'd like to see why, I mean, why you an investing maybe in particular, does it matter?

What we do with our money, but I'm also curious maybe more just to go back to that first part of your background. So you were in engineering, you're now in finances, like the two that don't, you know, you don't normally think of engineers going into the finances. What, what brought the two of these together?

Jason Myhre: Yeah. Yeah. So after getting a couple of degrees in engineering, I, I looked at my career prospects there. I just didn't like the nature of the work. It's one of the unfortunate things I think about our modern education system that you don't really get a sense for what your, your work life is going to be like until you've after, after you've gotten that education.

And so I sort of went back to the drawing board and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do with my life and engineering didn't seem like it was going to be a good fit. I got creative and I decided to try to parlay those skills into architecture. And so I pursued a master's in architecture at Harvard university, which is in Cambridge mass.

And so I started on it on a new career journey there. And while I was asleep, I ended up getting into this small house church in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I met a group of believers that were actually meeting together to talk about starting a business and in joining in with them and in those conversations and in, in a discernment process, I really began to like this group of people.

And I began to get very excited about some of the ideas that were coming forward. Ultimately the idea that rose to the top was to start a mutual fund company that was based in a Christian worldview. And this ended up really grabbing my attention. And I want it to be a part of it, but given I had that engineering background and certainly the architecture stuff was not going to be relevant.

I said, Hey let me join up and I'll try to sell it. So I'll go out and be your first Salesforce. And so that's how I got my start into the finance world. It's no training or, or formal background there, but started out on the sales side and have eventually worked my way from sales to marketing to now what I do, which is in the area of advocacy, where I'm doing a lot of public speaking on behalf of values and faith and above.

Ben Martinek: Well, good. Well, the two of those really tied together. Well then Jason, because, you know, the, my followup question was, well, why is investing in VR in particular important to be reflective of our values, maybe even for you to answer that rather specifically, why was it important as you got in or introduced to fact even tide?

W what kind of solution was that providing to you that you had a moral concern over

Jason Myhre: Yeah. Yeah. The, the, the way that it was brought home to me is, you know, this, this basic conundrum that I think that all of us face whenever we're investing. And that is the way that investing works today is that most of us in up. Putting our money into some accounts, an IRA, a 401k, and that's going to go into most often, it's going to go into an investment product called a mutual fund.

And the problem that we experience is that we kind of put our money into this account. It goes into this mutual fund, but we don't really know where our money is going. And we don't really know. You know, what, what companies were connected to, what companies we're supporting, where the profits are coming from.

So like, what are the business activities? What are the products and services that are generating the profits that are funding my future and this not knowing can give us a sense of unease where we might. Wonder, and if we actually examine that, that feeling and take a look and do the hard work of trying to figure out what it is we're investing in.

Unfortunately those misgivings end up being well founded because most of these investments contain element. That profit from things like abortion or pornography or tobacco or casinos, or there's a whole host of potential problem areas that we come into in investing. And and so, you know, you just have to kind of look at that problem square in the face, and that's the bad news is that we're, we're, we're in this, this disk, this disconnected place where we're sort of profiting from things that go against. Christian convictions. And so that's not what I wanted. And the, the, the idea was, well, why does it have to be this way? Why is it that companies are only evaluated on their basis on the basis of their potential for profit? Why might we not construct investments where the companies are chosen both for their ability to, to be profitable, but also for the.

They're Admiral Realty, where the profits are flowing from activities that come from from products and practices that we feel like are well aligned with God's heart and are well aligned with his vision for the world. And so I think it's, it's just a real opportunity for, for Christian innovation in, in the world of finance, where we can propose an alternative way and we don't have to simply follow the rules and conventions, conviction, conventions, and norms. Of the, of the status quo, but we can actually you know, bring something new to the world where real discernment is taking place about the kinds of companies we're investing in.

Deb Meyer: Thank you. That was really helpful. Just to. Elaborate a little bit more on the values based investing. I understand there's kind of three facets, the avoid, embrace and engage. Can you go into a little bit more detail about each of those dimensions and explain how your firm's strategy supports one or more of those?

Jason Myhre: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a real helpful framework and it's built off of this recognition that investing is owning companies. So I think, you know, many of us, we tend to see the charts and. And the ticker symbols and the account statements. And we're wa you know, we, we tend to watch the news and hear about what's going on in the market and the economy.

And we can forget with all of that financial machinery, what investing really is and investing is, is to invest in companies and, and what what's happening there is there's a lot like owning businesses. So you're supplying capital and supportive business. And what you're receiving in return is a share in the potential profits and growth.

And so if you think about investing as ownership, I think this ownership can, can lead us to thinking about these different questions. So the first one is, Well, are there any companies I don't want to own what are my non-negotiables here? What are the things I simply can't in? Good conscience take part in.

And so I mentioned. With some of those problem areas that we can come into, you know, the world of investing is as wide as the world of business. And so as we look out onto the business landscape, we see both examples of the wonder of business, but also the tragedy of business. And so this, this avoidance step, which is that one of those dimensions you mentioned is to actually express our, our faith beliefs and values by choosing not.

To invest in companies whose profits come from from one of these problem areas, one of these, these ethical pitfalls. And so this could be product related. It could be, you know, things like weaponry or abortifacients or pornography or tobacco, or there's a whole sort of host of things that you could, you could list out there or practices.

So how these companies are caring for Korea. How they are treating their employees and their suppliers, how they're conducting themselves in the communities, in which they operate. And so there's this avoid dimension allows you to at the beginning of the investment process, sort of express areas that you want to seek to avoid.

And I think all of us would happily forego, you know, profits that come from, from some of these areas. So that's the first dimension called. But it shouldn't stop there. Right. Because if you think about owning businesses, inevitably, you're going to get to this place where you say, okay, well, what do I want to be investing in positively?

What kinds of companies would I actually feel proud to own? What companies do I feel like are well aligned with God's heart and with his design for the way that business should operate. What kinds of businesses truly are serving society and human flourishing. I think this is the real goal of, of faith and values based investing.

It should be to arrive at a portfolio of companies we're truly excited about at my company. We've chosen as our tagline investing that makes the world rejoice, because we want to constantly set that reminder before us that it's, Hey, it's not about simply avoiding the bad we actually want to. Express our vision for the world and the kinds of businesses we're investing in and embrace the good.

And so this embrace dimension is, is harder, right? Because it's, it's fairly simple to list out a set of let's say, egregious business practices that you wish to avoid, but actually describing what the goal is, is a harder, is a harder task. It, it involves discerning what problems exist in the world. And where businesses are rising to meet those challenges all the while balancing that with your, your needs to grow capital.

So this exercise, I think can, can be a fruitful one where it'll yield a whole host of, of areas that I think you can be excited about. So this can range from innovations in the world of health care to You know, advances in technology that are enabling businesses to protect customer information or new forms of energy production that are, are much, much better for the air we breathe and for, for creation as a whole.

And there's a whole host of these you can come up with. So embrace is where you, you go in and you look for the types of businesses you want to own. And then finally, there's an engaged dimension. Which if you think about owning companies again, it's okay. Well, now that I'm investing my, my work isn't done here because now I own companies and there's some ongoing responsibilities that come with that and really opportunities because when you're a shareholder of a company, you have a voice in that company.

And so you can actually. Express your opinion. And they have to listen because you're one of the, the owners of the firm. And so we always are looking for ways that we can build relationships with management teams and pay attention to those proxy voting requirements that come our way, that we're voting our values and considering those, those proposals.

And then there are also opportunities where you can actually do something novel and approach the country. With an idea of how they could further improve their business. And if there's interest, I could get into an example there. So avoid would be avoiding the bad embrace is about pursuing the good and engage is an active ownership.

That's always looking for ways to help companies create even more value in the world.

Ben Martinek: Well, great. Thanks Jason. For that that explanation. I think what I'm curious to learn more about now is you know, when it comes to the businesses, we want businesses that do well in the world and are only in Alliance with our own Christian beliefs. we also are concerned about businesses that, you know, they may be well-intended, but only we want businesses that are well run and that are profitable activities.

Right. So, I mean, we, I think we all know of you know, perhaps Christian businesses that, you know, they, they intend well, but they're not, they don't, they're not doing a particularly good job in running their business. And as investors, you know, you know, we do want to promote you and you have you spoken very well.

How we could be we could adjust our investment portfolio based off of companies that are in Alliance with our beliefs. But I am curious to know you know, more specifically, how are we screening those companies? Like how do we determine what makes the cut and what doesn't make the cut. In consideration of the three points that you just made, but also maybe more specifically, I'm curious to know what even tide is doing to decide which companies financially speaking are good companies, good businesses to buy into as it also being screened.

So could you maybe speak first to the value value screen? How are we actually deciding which companies commerce go in light of those three? That you just mentioned the avoid embrace and engage, but then also financially speaking, how are the companies being screened to determine if the company's a goodbye?

If, if.

Jason Myhre: Yeah. Yeah. So on the values question What we do, and this is going to look different from, from each, you know, one company to the next, but you're going to need to gather information on the activities of the businesses that you're considering, and you're going to have to know, okay, how do they derive revenues?

So what are their, what are the, what are they selling? What are their, their products and services? And, you know how, how are they. How are they operating their business and there's data on this as well. So you can get data on a history of litigation, for example. And that could be from employees to fines for environmental infractions and these kinds of things.

And so there's a, there's a whole world of data out there that is, that is available that so we work with four, four different data vendors and we, we basically ingest all of this data. It's about 35 million data points. And we process that in a software platform that we've built in house at our company that we call Edify where we are.

We are running all of that data against a set of rules that we've written there's about 800 rules and 267 negative screens. So that sounds, that sounds like a lot of, many of those are facets of larger issues. So for example, you could think of. Production versus distribution. That's just an example, but what we're doing is, is we're at the outset, we're processing this data and coming up with a set of, of exclusions that will then eliminate a set of companies from consideration.

And then what that gives you is a starting investible universe that are at least in. Some rough alignment with your values. And that's the, the group of companies that you then begin to assess and do research on. It doesn't mean that they're all equally desirable, but they all meet some basic ethical criteria.

So then the question becomes, Okay. how do you, what do you do with this, this large group of companies? That's, that's leftover. So we do a couple of things. It's a combination of that embrace thinking. So what are those, what are those areas in the investing world where we can invest to grow our money, but where the money is going to be flowing from activities that are serving society and human flourishing. So, w we're we're trying to converge on these spaces of the market that are attractive before we even get into the financials. think that's another way of winnowing down the huge universe of possibilities and to ones that you're really interested in looking at. And then there's other processes we use, which I won't get into specifics, but that are on the value side to your question about the, the financials.

We do, you of course use all the traditional tools of finance, which is where we're building financial models. We're interviewing management. We are evaluating the competitive landscape. We are doing valuation work where you're actually projecting into the future, their cash flows, and then you discount them back to today and you adjusted for the probability of success.

These are all the tools of the trade to try to arrive at what we believe is the true intrinsic worth of that, that business. And so in general, if, if we can feel like the business is operating in one of these embrace spaces and then. Emerges as a kind of ideal company, both in terms of the values, as well as the financials.

And that's going to be a company that ultimately we're going to look to include in our, in our investments. So hopefully that gives you a little bit of a window in there.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I thought that was a great explanation.

Jason Myhre: let me, let me actually, let me say one other one other thing here. And that is, this is a little bit more on the Christian philosophy. So I have this belief that, that God has actually structured reality in such a way that it is, it is to operate in, in accordance with his, his laws and his ways and give praise to him. And so I believe that there is a, a theological element or a philosophical element to looking at businesses. The whole exercise of seeking to find businesses that are aligned with God's ways that really demonstrate his design and his desire for the world, that these businesses ought to experience blessing and ought to have an easier path toward prosperity than, than businesses that are going against.

His ways and they're operating in ways that are more reflective of human rebellion and the fall and sin and the distortion of that design. And so this gets to that, that age old question of do values conflict with, with finding profitable investments. And I'm in the minority camp that believes that actually following God's ways is the smartest investment philosophy that I could write.

I actually believe that this whole process of eliminating agregious businesses and the difficult work of trying to discern what I am looking for, that, that this is equally an exercise in virtue. And as it is, self-interest that these businesses that ultimately we're looking for following God's ways, I think is going to be the way that, that these businesses prosper. so we actually believe that through this whole values process, we are converging on companies that are, that have the best chance of, of generating the attractive rate of return that we're looking for. Now, all of this has to be covered with an asterix that, that we live in a world in which this isn't always the case.

There are always paradoxes and contradictions. You know, we see the righteous prospering and the wicked suffering and these kinds of things, or I'm sorry, the righteous suffering and the wicked prospering. So there are contradictions, there are some things that are only going to be sorted out on the last day.

But in general, I believe this is a rule of thumb that, that God has designed the world in such a way that it responds to him and that by following his ways, we are on the path of.

Deb Meyer: That's lovely. Thank you. You were talking a little bit about paradox. Let's touch on this nuance of patronage versus owner. Do you see those as really the same thing, or if you viewed them differently, how could you give a practical example?

Jason Myhre: Sure. Yeah.

The the classic example here. Well, let me first set up the question for, for the listeners. One of the questions that people have is is there a difference between being a customer of a company and being an investor in a company? And the reason this question comes up is let's say.

You are, you're a customer of Amazon and let's maybe you're a prime customer and you, you, you, you love it when you're able to order something. And it shows up on your front door in a short amount of time. And and So you're a customer of Amazon, but then you look at becoming an investor and you see in, in, you know, the, the data that this, this company fails, one of your values criteria is.

And so as an investor, you won't own it. Is that a contradiction? Should you be a customer of the company if you're, or, you know, should you be an investor in the company? Do these things need to be in alignment? So the way that you can kind of think through this issue is by thinking about the classic example, then the classic example is to just think of a gas station, convenience store in your neighborhood.

So you're treated at your regular old gas station. Think about yourself as a customer. So you go there and you get gas, you go in, you grab a bottle of water and you're on your way. That's the relationship that you've had with that business as a customer. I don't think you've done anything wrong there. Now think about investing in that gas station. So if you're investing in that gas station, it's like you're owning it. And so you're perfectly happy with customers. Just like the one I described who come and get gasoline and buy that bottle of. But as the owner of a company, you're also happy if people come and buy lottery tickets or tobacco.

And so as an investor in a company, you are benefiting from the entirety of that, of that business, through all of their products and services and practices. Whereas a customer, you engage with the business only on the transaction with that particular product or service. Now, this doesn't mean that our consumer choices are not important.

You might, you know, perhaps there's a, a gas station that's a little bit further away that has chosen not to sell tobacco and lottery tickets. Well, I think that would be a good decision to go and patronize that other business because you're, you're wanting to support a business that is doing things that are, that are closer to the. Now to give you a practical example in the world of investing just where this is a little bit rubber meets the road. One of the, the typical investment screens that's employed by Christian investors is to screen out alcohol. And this is something that is a head-scratcher because you know, some Christians look at this and they say, wait a minute, is this a hole?

Is this a hold over from T totalism and prohibition? And, and maybe you've, you've come to the conclusion that like, you cannot make a biblical argument for alcohol being intrinsically evil. And I hold that position. I enjoy wine and spirits and craft beer and, and, and the whole, the whole gamut.

So, but think about this, this customer versus patron argument. So me as a, as a consumer. Of alcohol. It's my responsibility to drink in moderation. And I'm I, I am able to have a healthy relationship with alcohol, but as the investor in a business, you often don't get, you don't get to choose your customers, right?

And so you, you may have customers that are, that actually have a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol. And in fact, this is born out in research on the topic where the Washington post did a study. And determined that actually the top 10% of, of alcohol drinkers in the country are consuming about 74 drinks a week.

So this is a a group of people who have a very unhealthy relationship with alcohol, who are, who are enslaved in it and, and may wish to be free from it. Well, so as it turns out, if the majority of the alcohol. It's being consumed by this, this group that has an unhealthy relationship. Well, the profits that come from these large brewers vendors, distillers are coming from that very same group of people.

And so as an investor in alcohol, it's not this, this belief that the Bible is conveying that it's wrong. It's rather a consideration of your neighbor and not wanting to profit off of their message.

Ben Martinek: So maybe as a followup to that, Jason will sometimes get questions from clients who are curious. Well, it's kind of twofold in terms of the nature of the question. One is, you know, they look at the moral, the investing landscape and they say, you know, look, I could screen out investments or companies out of my portfolio, but does it make it matter?

It does. Does it make a difference, like, am I actually doing or accomplishing anything by the screening? And then there's also kind of equally weighted with this a concern of, well, if I do this, am I not just hurting my own investment performance, but maybe not a better tactic? I make the money that I make.

I don't employ any screens. And then I, I can apply those profits to other activities. Right. I have a more hands-on control or awareness of, of what the activity is doing that is in alignment with my values. Maybe, should I just take my investment performance and apply it to charities? I'm curious to know what your answer is to that first does moral screening matter.

Is it something that we should be doing this? Does it make a difference? But to, you know, Is the take of whether or not it affects our investment performance, you know, is that maybe the right way for us to be looking at this? You know, what are your thoughts on those? Those matters.

Jason Myhre: Yeah.

Yeah, On the first question, I absolutely do believe it matters. And I, would say, you know, it's a fascinating subject to consider the way in which our investment decisions shaped the world around us. Make a difference in the world. But what I like to start with is set aside whether or not it makes a bit of difference in society.

It absolutely makes a difference in your life. When you are investing, you're actually benefiting from, from these, these business activities that are having an impact in the lives of. And if, if those profits are coming from good activities, I think you can have a perfectly clear conscience, but if those profits are flowing from activities that, that harm our neighbor or dishonor God that's, that is a moral responsibility that we are, that we are willfully taking on.

We are financially benefiting from what that business is doing for good or for. And so by following conviction here, it makes an immediate difference in our lives. And this gets at the biblical idea of, of integrity or wholeness that we're actually living out our convictions rather than having stated convictions that are being conflicted by our actions.

We're experiencing a harmony between what we believe and what. So it makes an immediate difference in our lives first. And I always want to emphasize that. And there's, there's nothing like having that, that piece of conscience it's been described as, as, as a positive emotional return. So it's whether or not there's a financial return, there is a return to the way that that life feels.

We feel like a whole person. And I think that that is something that we should, we should value more than anything. But you know, secondarily, I do think that our investments shaped the world around us. This would be a whole topic, but investing is a two-way street. There's there's the street that contains profits.

That's headed toward you. And there's the street that is your money headed toward businesses. And this gets a little murky in secondary markets. We can get into the weeds if you want them. But there's actually ways in which our investments are actually shaping the world at large and making a difference in society as well.

So we can actually think about directing capital in ways that are meeting human needs and actually bringing about blessing in the world. To your, remind me again on your, your, oh, I remember the second question. So you, you, you framed it two different ways, but I'll, I'll address one of the ways you, you presented it. Isn't this whole strategy, perhaps the wrong way to think about things. Isn't there a sense of urgency in life where we need to be very shrewd and perhaps seek to make as much money as possible so that we can fund important Christian work. And so the, the short. Slogan for this is make as much as you can so that you can give as much as you can.

And this has been a question that the church has wrestled with for, for centuries actually. And people like John Wesley, the way back in the 17 hundreds were challenging. The. This framing, but even today, there are modern proponents of this. So I won't name any, any pastors, but their celebrity pastors that are well-regarded that would advocate for this position that, you know what we need to be shrewd.

We need to make as much money as we can so that we can fund the great commission is usually the way that it's, that it's framed there. But I think that if we, if we look at, at the way, the Bible speaks into this top, It gives us a challenge to that notion. And I'll give you just one, one verse here. This is a really, really obscure verse, but I think that it offers an interesting window into the mind and heart of God.

So this comes from Deuteronomy 2318, and this is actually in the miscellaneous laws section of the law that was given to Israel by. So we, we tend to sail over this one in our Bible reading plans. But if you're, if you're looking for how God understands profits, I think this verse is important. So Deuteronomy 2318, it says this is God speaking.

He says, you shall not bring the earnings of a male prostitute or a female prostitute into the house of the Lord, your God to pay any vow because the Lord, your God to test them. Now, let me just explain what this verse is saying. It's saying that this, this instruction from God is that he's saying, I don't want the profits that come from prostitution to be used in tithing or paying a vowel at the temple.

And he says why he says, because I hate these profits. When you first read that verse, you think maybe he's saying that he had. The prostitutes, but in fact, that's not the case. It's saying that he hates the profits from prostitution. Very interesting glimpse into the way that God thinks. Why does he hate the profits that come from prostitution?

Well, because he's given us our sexual powers for a sacred purpose for procreation and unity in marriage. And he hates the distortion of that gift and the, and those powers, particularly from. And and so he hates those profits and he's saying, I don't want these profits to be given to me in charity. Now, if that's God's view, I think, I think that that should be our view as well, where I say essentially what I think the Bible is portraying is that generous giving is important, but. There's something upstream of that. And it's actual, it's actually a conscionable earning. So every, every gift that we get, every tie that we give, I think should, should be coming from a source of money that we feel good about.

And, and that we know the sources of those profits and that we can give you know, with with a clean heart. And, and with joy toward the thing that we're supporting. So the long and the short of it is I don't think the ends justify the means. I think the Bible actually communicates that, that the, that the way we make our money and what we give our money to should, it should work in tandem.

Deb Meyer: Yeah.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I, in prior conversations with Jason, you've made a illusion to the mafia wife, you know, and maybe it's just as a step further, it would be an issue of whether or not, you know, if the mafia wife co-hosts and gives large donations to the church, you know, is this an acceptable practice? You know, we're, we're really hitting on this notion of blood money and is it okay for us?

The well, as you've said, you know, does the, the ends justify the means and said, okay, for us to make our money from this source, and then you use it for good, good purposes. Does that still mean the end by which we got the money is, is acceptable. And I think, yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you. It, it's hard for us as a matter of conscience to accept that this is, this is okay, but this is ethical.

Jason Myhre: Yeah. And actually there, there are some contemporary pastors who I think hold, hold to that view. There's there's a, I remember reading an article from, from John Piper that was released in the two thousands where he actually, through his desiring God website came out and said that, that he will do his best. At his church and to lead the elders at his church and to not accepting ties to the church that came from the winnings of gambling, because he believed that he believes that gambling disproportionately preys on the poor. And so if someone hits the lottery in his church, he was making it clear to his congregation that the church was not interested in receiving a tie from those. And it's a very unusual position to hold today, but I think that actually it's the, it's the biblical one.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I think you're right in that.

Deb Meyer: Yeah, I have to agree. I I, with then's comment about the mafia wife that also hit home for me to have just the idea that, you know, you're turning the head the other way when your husband's going out and making money in some inappropriate manner, but then oh, benefiting from that wealth.

And really it's a matter of just. Understanding what your values are and living those out as congruently as you can, both from a generosity standpoint, but also from the investing side. So thank you. Could you share a little bit more about resources for those who are just getting started in this morally responsible investing space?

What would be some good websites or podcasts to listen to any, any recommendations?

Jason Myhre: Yeah, there's, there's a real lack. I think, of, of resources that are out there on this topic. We were at my company working to address this by the end of the year, our hope is to actually launch what we're calling the even tide center for faith and India. Which will be a place of education for Christians to, to learn about this topic and, and how they can understand the world of investing better and what faith would mean to investment decision makings.

So that's forthcoming at the time that we're recording this, but I also have to give a plug, actually, Deb, you've written on this topic and a book. Maybe you could give a plug as I, I gave a scam. Of what you wrote there and actually felt like it was a really helpful introduction to the topic.

Deb Meyer: Thank you. Yes, it's called redefining family wealth. And it's really a playbook. Touches on this investing aspect, but it's really more of a guide for kind of comprehensive financial planning for families that really want to play out those faith convictions in their financial decision making.

Jason Myhre: Very good.

Ben Martinek: Okay. Well, thanks, Jason. For those comments, I think I had a momentary technical disturbance here, but I just want to express my gratitude for having you on the show today and what you had to share. It's been really wonderful to get your thoughts and insights. You've definitely made me more interested in your fund opera selection and opportunities.

And I S I suppose, for anyone who's listened and heard the show so far where we should someone go, if they want to learn more about even tide or get in touch or being contacted.

Jason Myhre: yeah. They could, they could find us on the web at even Thai. Investments.com. So even tide is, is Evie E N T I D E even tide investments.com. They could, they could find us there and, and check.

Deb Meyer: Thank you. I really, really appreciate it. And I will say This is actually the second time we're recording this podcast because I had a technical difficulty the first time. So I just really, really want to express my gratitude for both Jason and Ben being. So Forgiving. But yeah, now I can laugh about it cause it's been a few weeks since the original fail, but I was mortified the first time.

So anyway, thank you to your listeners. And we really I think. Gives you a framework for thinking about morally responsible investing and we're going to be bringing more episodes like this in the coming months on Catholic money mastermind. So please stay tuned.

Ben Martinek: Our pleasure death. Thanks for having us.

Jason Myhre: you.