Talking Dave Ramsey [PODCAST]

[00:00:00]Andy Flattery: So this is the Catholic money mastermind podcast. And , we thought it might be kind of interesting to take a look at the religious man here in the United States, that talks about money. And of course, that's Dave Ramsey. So I'm sitting here with Ben Martin NEC, and Ben is the founder of bonafide finance up in North Dakota.

And. Ben has had some experience with Dave Ramsey. So I thought I would have a conversation with Ben and hear his thoughts. So

Ben, first off, how are you?

Ben Martinek: I'm good, Andrew. Thanks for it.

Andy Flattery: Absolutely good. Good to chat with you. And just to kind of kick this thing off, tell us a little about your background with Dave Ramsey and what your experience with his work has been and why he's been significant to

you.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, well, I mean, there's quite a story for me, but Dave has definitely had a big impact in our lives. Really a big impact as to why I do the work [00:01:00] I do now with on a few day finance and starting the firm. As a financial advisor, he's definitely part of my career change. He was also part of us cleaning up our own personal finances.

So there's a large degree of debt in which I could say I have to Dave Ramsey and his philosophy and take on things. Early on when we first got married, we were introduced to Dave just cause he tends to float around a lot of those pre-marriage circles and a part of our own. Preparation for beginning getting married as Catholics.

It was a name that was tossed about. And so I was familiar, knew about it, Kim, but more to the point where my wife and I is one of our strategies for paying off our student loan debt that we had a mass by going to a private Catholic school was pretty considerable. And our strategy to pay that off.

Driving truck over the road for between the two of us. And so we had a lot of windshield time as they like to say, and a lot of opportunity to listen to the radio. And it was really at that moment that we got really deeply into [00:02:00] Dave, because we could just listen to him every day, hour after hour you.

know, almost really seven days a week.

And he played a really big role in helping us stay focused and committed to 16, our finances and getting him underway while we were driving.

Andy Flattery: I love it, man. Yeah. I mean, same here. I don't remember how old you are banned, but I'm 35 years old. Yeah. And I got started in financial services in 2010, and I call myself the reformed financial advisor because I was like, I literally been, was like stock jockey guy. I was working at one of these like old school stock jockey boiler room firms.

Ben Martinek: Okay.

Andy Flattery: I was in finance, but I was, I was doing everything wrong with my personal finances. So yeah, at the time I had credit card debt, I had student loan debt and. And of course this was 2010 just after the financial crisis. I wasn't making a lot of money, just cold calling [00:03:00] at a stock Jacky firm, but I had a friend give me the total money makeover and, and my friend was like this, read this book.

It will change your life. And, and Ben, I read it and I'm with you. Like it totally fired me up. I got all excited about paying off. And at the time, I think I was making like $24,000 in my first year at this firm.

Ben Martinek: Nice.

Andy Flattery: I paid off all of my, obviously it went up, thank God. But, but I paid off all of my student loan and all my credit card debt within a couple of years.

And it was just, it was doing all this stuff. It was following the baby steps. It was living on a budget tracking expenses and just getting fired up about being debt free. So I, for that, for that reason, like I affirm Dave Ramsey, like he helped get me excited about personal finance. He helped move me from stock jockey guy to really the entire other end of the spectrum, which [00:04:00] is financial planning.

Ben Martinek: totally.

Andy Flattery: so, so I think both, you know, our origin

stories are similar in that regard.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I didn't know that, but it is almost the exact same. I mean, prior to Dave, I was influenced by Robert Kiyosaki who was a big real estate mogul and a big name back in the early two thousands. And I got introduced to him by a buddy of mine in grad school. And that's what probably only turned me down.

Cause at the time I was studying philosophy and thinking of becoming an academic and you know, teaching at some point as a college professor and that's still actually has some fascination for me, although I don't think that's gonna be what happens, but you know, I got introduced only to business and investing and, and the, like with my buddy who was also studying alongside me and philosophy and started reading a lot of Robert Kiyosaki.

And so I was initially, he was my initial mentor and, you know, back at that point, mid two thousands, right before the bubble everybody thought they [00:05:00] could make money in real estate. And so that was definitely on the top of my mind and thought I was going to be able to do the same. So Dave was a very interesting contrast of, for a lot of reasons.

I mean, they're almost polar opposites in many ways, Robert Kiyosaki and Dave Ramsey, but you know, his focus was you know, not. Not to have debt and to pay it off and not to own anybody and not use other people's money as Robert was suggesting. And then he also had the very personal story of of a real estate crash.

I mean instigated Dave's work is, but he initially was a real estate mogul and only got himself over leveraged and it all, all fell apart. And that's a story you would hear if you listen to his radio program, he shared it quite a bit. And you know, many years later the pain of that bankruptcy is something that really stuck with them.

And what was a big inspiration for, for what he advises now, which I, I think for the most part is really spot on. I've kind of distanced myself more so from Robert Kiyosaki than I have from Dave, [00:06:00] but Yeah. I mean, for, for just getting someone to just kind of get some common sense start thinking about money and think about it in the right way and make some progress and, and to have a game plan, you know, the seven baby steps that he has.

Like, I think Dave's just golden. Like it's, he's probably hard pressed to find anyone else who has a more motivating appeal of, and Dave Ramsey. And he certainly had that for.

Andy Flattery: Yeah. I thought what we could do is maybe just pick a few things to affirm about Dave Ramsey. Since you know, both you and I have a debt of gratitude to him, and also like, Ben, I don't know about you, but like he's kind of a baseline for a lot of the conversations that I have where I'll have someone approach me and they'll immediately start talking about which baby step they're on, or, you know what Dave Ramsey might think about their budget.

And so I think it's kind of an interesting place to start this conversation, but what do you think, what are the two or three things that you would affirm about the [00:07:00] Dave Ramsey system? Dave Ramsey as a person or his whole kind of

ethos in general?

Ben Martinek: Well, I think that's a good way to go about it. I definitely want it to affirm Dave, although now that I've been in this business for close to a decade you know, some of the opinions that Dave does espouse, I've also migrated away from. And I, I, I have certainly criticisms to share, but before we get into those, I think we should stay on the positive and talk about the good work that Dave does.

You know, I think one, th there's not too many other figures, maybe even just in American history, who've had a larger impact on the day-to-day management of family households than Dave Ramsey. I mean, just a current day impact. A stretch is enormous. And I mean, I could only dream or hope to ever have as much of an impact as Dave is providing on getting people really to move away from consumerism and just a wise up.

And Hey, you know, you're not going to find happiness and money and let's get control of yourself and grow up and stop overspending. Like Dave is really good medicine. [00:08:00] For waking people up and you know, he's a little abrasive, he could throw that as a criticism of his, but I also think that abrasiveness is a certain scent needed because we can be pretty pig-headed and and we don't want to listen.

And so, you know, Dave could be the guy who was just willing to tell you straight what he thinks you need to do and, and not not mix cut corners or anything. Like he tells it to you as it is.

Andy Flattery: Yeah, I, I think that's huge. I mean, he, he kind of motivates a certain demographic of Americans to change their lifestyle. So when I used to listen to his radio show like you did, and people would yell freedom and they would play the I think it was the Braveheart music

Ben Martinek: Totally.

Andy Flattery: I would get fired up. And I think just, just as a motivator, that's something that I could learn from him as a financial advisor.

He is someone that can motivate and can inspire people to cast a vision for their finances [00:09:00] and get motivated about achieving that. And I think a lot of times it's with your spouse, right? Like you mentioned, you were driving across the country with your

wife, which is awesome.

Ben Martinek: There was a lot of fun.

Andy Flattery: Well, yeah, I, I think I agree.

Like, I think, I think stories are powerful, like both Dave's story, how he talks about his bankruptcy and how he learned from that. And then the stories of people dialing into his show and sharing the progress that they've made or the problems that they're having. I think people really relate to that. I know.

And, and I think we miss that sometimes in regulated financial services where it's, it's a little bit less of about story. It's more about the firm or our expertise or something like that. And you don't get as many of these real stories that that Dave seems to be promoting. So I think there's definitely

something we can learn.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I think so. Yeah. It's we we listen pretty religiously really to those Dave, those freedom calls. I mean, I [00:10:00] think he had them twice a week. They would bring tears to our eyes. I know they certainly brought tears to my wife's eyes. Like, I mean, it was like we dreamed of the day to be able to call into his radio show or even go there in person that was at one point our hope and tell the world that we'd paid off all their debt.

And it was just like, knowing that to be the goal. And that's what we're working towards. It made all those daily sacrifices worth it. And, and, and that's, I think a big takeaway from this is that, you know, really to get your finances going in the right order. We have. The freedom, maybe the tyranny of choice, you know, there's just so many things to do.

And th that becomes a bit of a distraction and it's in order to really get some progress and to get going, you need focus, you need lots and lots of focus and to get, Yeah,

And gosh, Dave is so good about just getting you hyper-focused on a single goal and just like everything you've got, put it all into you.

Like we're going to hit this baby, you know, cause L intensity, as he would say, and like we're getting out of debt [00:11:00] and you would just, yeah, you would zero in and focus on this goal. And because of that, I mean, the sacrifices you had to make, cause you can't do everything still. And like somethings have to go like that.

They just didn't have the same impact or effect any longer. You were so excited about hitting your goal. And you know, this is like one of the things we would do because it, and this was Dave Ramsey inspired is so minimize unnecessary spending while you're driving, because you would have those opportunities, like you're stopping at a truck stop or something.

You just wouldn't even bring our money in with you. Right. Like we just left it in the truck. And so even if we ever wanted to buy something, like it, wasn't just, wasn't a possibility. And that was just like a basic principle that we learned early on, really inspired from Dave and listening to him that just helped us out a bunch on, on getting things straightened out for ourselves.

Andy Flattery: Yeah, like in our household, one of the things that we still do. And I guess Dave would probably critique this in some ways, but like, I, I only put fixed expenses on our, our household credit card. [00:12:00] So like, we don't have any discretionary spending, for example, on our household credit card. Not that I think it's wrong or sinful or anything like that, but, but I think Dave was onto something.

And when he would talk about how it, there would be a tendency to put more expenses on a credit card, if you had unlimited.

Ben Martinek: Okay.

Andy Flattery: And that, that was significant to me. And I've kind of followed that, not in terms of a cash budget, but still just keeping kind of fixed household expenses on it and

leaving it at that.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, well, maybe that would just be a good turning or segue point to talk a little bit. Okay. I mean, Dave's great. And I'm certainly a big fan. Know, if I ever were to speak I'm more positive than I am negative, but you know, I've also been in this business for a while and, you know, do I think the Dave Ramsey is the end-all and be-all I certainly don't definitely don't think he's the end all and be all.

And some of the shortcomings I think he has, and I don't know how much he can legitimately get away from these. Some of this is just the fact that he has a mass media and he's trying to reach a broad audience. And in order to stay on message in such [00:13:00] a large general audience, you have to really simplify.

Yeah, the nuances of how you manage money, because otherwise it just leads to confusion or adults to the point. And but you know, some of the things that Dave does do is there is almost a cult-like following with people where they think anything that's not, Dave is just like immoral or wrong or sinful.

Destined for failure. And I, I definitely think that's the wrong interpretation to take from Dave. Like if you think that.

Dave Ramsey is almost a, a semi God walking of healthy earth, when it comes to money, you you're mistaken. It's a, it's a strong ego, strong approach, strong technique, very valuable, but I, I really think the value. Primarily lies and just getting you started and getting you underway. Eventually. I think everybody, I don't know if Dave is Dave would like this, but that's beside the point. I think eventually everybody should graduate from Dave Ramsey. Like there is a point where some of what he teaches just as it's rudimentary it's for kindergarten.

[00:14:00] I do think you can move beyond this as an adult. And you know, one of those examples could be the use of a credit card and having this religious absolution against or exclusion towards. Hard debt. I, I don't think that's necessary, but in the early stages of our own transformation, Yeah.

we were, we cut up all our credit cards.

We went exclusively to debit cards and it stayed that way for a good while up until the point that we as ingrained to have it on ourselves, not to overspend. So it was probably three years that we went without any credit cards whatsoever.

Andy Flattery: Yeah. I mean, we had a actually a friend of mine, Michael tinny. In our Facebook group, Catholic money mastermind, he addressed this and I thought what he wrote was fantastic. I'm just going to read it really quick. He said Dave's primary assumption, which holds true for much of humanity is that people are broken and have no self control.

That is why these same [00:15:00] people are likely to quote, buy things. They don't need with money. They don't have to impress people. They don't care about.

Ben Martinek: Right.

Andy Flattery: Defer payment indefinitely and get themselves into financial trouble. However, a Catholic man is taught to deny yourself and pick up your cross. You're not a slave to your passions and do not have control over the money you spend and quotes so that that's from Michael.

And I thought that was just a useful, I don't know if Dave accepts that full on, but I think a lot of people think that he does. And so I think that was kind of a useful framework to help understand. What we're talking about here with regards to

credit. Yeah.

Ben Martinek: Yeah. I mean, truthfully, you can have, I think the wrong understanding of debt. And this is where I think Dave starts actually kind of conflict on him, conflict on himself. I mean, some of my biggest criticisms with Dave where I, I really think actually it would be bad to listen to his advice is when it comes to investing, like he, he gives a broad answer to how people should invest their money.

That [00:16:00] is just simply too broad. And I. Yeah. I mean, well, one, I suppose, just to get into some of the criticisms, you know what to put 25% of your money on large 25%, middle 25% small cap stocks and at 25% international and presumably to, to have a hundred percent of your money invested at equities at all time, regardless of who you are, like, that's just, that's almost boneheaded.

If not, you're, you're responsible to give that simple of advice when it comes to investments. You know, also his touting that, you know, you can get 12% returns and that, I don't know if this is as much in the case. Yeah. Tamed a little bit in his, his touting of this, but certainly when we listened to him, you know, he was always touting, but his guys, his endorsed local provider investors could get them full percent returns and you'd just do what they're going to do.

And they're going to get 12%, which is quite a bit better than what the market on the whole has ever averaged. And so there's, there's almost like an inside, you know, work with me and we can really knock it out of [00:17:00] the park for you. Yeah, 12% returns. That's a, a touch. Ridiculous. Not to say it couldn't be done, but it's, it's certainly would be a stretch.

And then even, you know, his life insurance, which I by and large think is right, you know, by term, presumably invest the difference or at least just by term. Cause it's, it works and it's enough and you don't need to go and get whole life. You know, the fact though of it, his means by which to figure how much you turn you should buy is only 10 times your current household income.

And you could just live off at 10% each year of the, what that policy would produce for yourself. So basically I have a 10% distribution on the life insurance, like, well, that's, that's insane. There's no way you could live on just 10%. The life insurance policy is going to keep on living. You're totally going to kill your capital.

So I, I mean, those are just a handful of things where it's like, oh my gosh, Dave, you're like way wrong on this. Not even close to being right. [00:18:00] I, Yeah.

And that's, yeah, I mean, early on, I totally believe to every bit of that. I even worked with Dave Ramsey's endorsed local provider in his investor initially early on.

I mean, he's part of why I'm a CFP because he recommended others to be a CFP on the radio and got me interested in it. And this only why I'm here is because of Dave Ramsey. And when I was first with Dave Ramsey's endorsed local provider, I mean, we were zealots and it's just like, whatever Dave says, and boy, I tell you what, as I got more educated, I'm like, boy, I know it's like Bitten teeth or whatever that expression is like.

I have to, I don't know if I can tell you, we should listen to Dave on this anymore. Like I've slowly migrated away from some of his talking points,

Andy Flattery: Right. Like, I just, I did a quick calculation for example, Ben, and let's say that you make $70,000 a year and you save 15%, which I think is maybe around what Dave recommended. So that's $10,000 a year and you do that for 30 years. [00:19:00] Well, if you can invest that money at 12%. It's two and a half million that you have in 30 years, that that same amount saved that 6% is just $830,000.

So that's, I mean, that is a huge discrepancy and a huge assumption to make. And by the way, it's no guarantee that anyone's going to make 6% over 30 years.

Ben Martinek: sure.

Andy Flattery: I've, I've met plenty of people in my life. Has just not happened for, so it almost seems to me like he should either keep his advice with regards to investment, just incredibly generic and just talk about you know, what a stock is and why some people choose to invest in stocks over bonds and when this might be the right situation.

And when it isn't Not talk about it at all, but I agree with you when he starts giving kind of specific advice about asset allocations and which kinds of funds to buy and how [00:20:00] much you should have in equities. I think it's just crazy, man, as you, as you. And I know, like we're all different and it's really hard to give blanket investment advice.

I think he's getting into some pretty, you know, troubling territory

there.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, it's honestly kind of amazing that he's able to get away with it. Cause it, it really is just that egregious. Like it, it it's not sound, I don't know if anyone else who would recommend it or who should like. Bad advice. I mean, some of this too, with even his network again, I was part of this. I was, I worked alongside his investor the advisor.

Who's a great guy. I mean, we really did the best we could to to advise and work with people. I can't give it too much too much grief, but. I don't know if people are aware of it. I mean, it's only, he makes money off of all that networking. Right. And you're you pay per lead. And so the advisor we were working with was paying Dave Ramsey to get those leads to him and or from him, [00:21:00] and, you know, part of how we had our kickback was in this kind of conventional traditional model in which that sort of disclosure.

Hey, this is how how you're ultimately working in front of me or talking to me today is because I am paying Dave Ramsey. You know, I'm pretty much, I'm a big fan of the feely model, which which is rather different from

Andy Flattery: Okay.

Ben Martinek: what most of his investors or advisors are operating in, which is more of a commission-based Front-load sales charge.

If it doesn't have to disclose these potential conflicts of interest. And so there's just from a professional angle that things get a little grayish in terms of the quality of the advice that you're getting from the person and what conflicts they might have in terms of why they're recommending what they're recommending to you.

And is this really sound and in principle you get kind of a puppet His network of folks. And I just don't know if [00:22:00] any financial advice should be pocketed about that. there.

there's a lot of value in working with somebody who's more independent and you can think freely and clearly, and isn't directly tied to anybody when it comes to how they're compensated.

Andy Flattery: Yeah. Like, I always think there are exceptions to the rule, of course, but I think with regards to day of like, I think it was maybe 2013 or 2014, Ben, I actually went to, I don't know if he still does it he's but like one of his like big rallies, I don't

know what you call it, but it

Ben Martinek: Oh, yeah, he does. That's right. I forgot

Andy Flattery: still do those,

Ben Martinek: I don't know if he does Yeah. I mean,

it's not a financial peace university, but

like it's big. Like they were quarterly seminars or

Andy Flattery: Oh, yeah.

Ben Martinek: monthly even they went on the road.

Andy Flattery: I went to one, I mean, this was a packed arena in Colorado Springs and it, you know, and it was impressive. Like the place was packed. People were fired up, but I just kind of left with like a dirty feeling because the whole thing was just as a pit. So Dave, Dave would come out and [00:23:00] talk and then, and then his daughter would come out and pitch your book and then someone else would come out and pitch a board game for kids, and then someone else would come out and pitch there.

I mean, it was just one thing after another. And so, you know, Dave has got multiple streams of income and good for him on that. But at some point you do have to kind of wonder if there's value in just, you know, throwing off. Throwing it all in and saying, you know what? I kind of just want someone independent that doesn't have all of these conflicts of interest and trying to try to do the money grab and in every area of this particular enterprise.

So I, I

agree with you on that front.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I mean, it's, there could be worse things in life, but that was actually cause I was working with Dave. I would read these criticisms of our whole arrangement then on the fate on initially, you know, again, this is just my whole migration of thought initially. I'm like, oh gosh, how could someone even say anything negative to date about Dave Ramsey?

They don't really know him or they don't know anything about them. This is just obscene. You know, you start reading [00:24:00] so many of those and you know, you start to wonder and you investigate further and you know, bit by bit, I think I was convinced like, I think they've got a point this really, I don't know if this is the best arrangement.

So I, you know, I've, I've, I've definitely have moved away from Dave. I'm familiar with the seven baby steps. I mean, if there was a go-to person that I had to say, Hey, you need some help. And yeah. You know, working with me, maybe it wasn't the right.

solution for them. You know, Dave would still be at the top of my list of recommendations referrals or doing the financial peace university.

I think there's a lot of value, a lot of good things there, but Yeah.

the investing piece not really the grant, even how it's being administered through his network and it starts to get a little chintzy and then, you know, probably lastly, like another criticism. I know, I just feel differently on with Dave is the word debt, the use of debt.

You know, th this is a little bit of a carry back to Robert Kiyosaki, but I only just don't think the use of capital or financing, you know, other people's money is only [00:25:00] wrong or bad. I do think you can get into trouble or danger with it, but to have this abolition evolution on debt like Dave does, where it's like, it's.

Not in the scripture. It's God's word to tell us not to do this. Like, I, I just don't think there's basis for that. And honestly, it's, it's, it kind of cuts at the very heart of capitalism, because really all of capitalism, whether it's done through debt or stock ownership, you know, bonds, bonds, and lending money, or all the buying someone else's stock is a matter of handing capital on onto the next person and seeing what they can do for it and the return that they can generate for you.

And you know, to have this. Antagonism on debt, I think is you know, it's like praising one side of it, but at the same time shutting the other year, you're almost too faced. So, you know, can you get into trouble with having too much debt? No question. Can you have too big of a mortgage? You know, should you ever have consumer debt and credit card balances?

Absolutely not. It's totally. It doesn't make sense. I mean, your car loans really advisable. I mean, [00:26:00] I could be iffy there, but I tend to think you're better off without them, but to have no debt. The very best thing to do in your situation is to completely eradicate all debt as soon as possible. Like, especially when it comes to student loans as an example, which ironically enough, I mean, that was our angle was to pay down your student loan debt.

Now, now that I'm more well-read into some of the student loan repayment options that are available. I think that's a dicey question as to what you should do if your student loan debt, it certainly shouldn't simply be, we need to just pay this off because it's bad. There are better ways to manage this.

And so that blanketed advice of just eradicate all debt. I you know, there's parts of it about, I agree with and other parts that I'm like, no, I don't, I don't think that's the best advice any longer.

Andy Flattery: Right. I, I pulled this. Ben, are you familiar at all with the Catholic encyclopedia?

20th century?

Ben Martinek: I can't say that I am not with any detail.

Andy Flattery: That's fine. It's online. It's it's cool. And it was published maybe like in the 19 teens and I just, I pulled this. Which, which I think relates to what we're talking about and the Catholic it's [00:27:00] cyclopedia says in practice as even the answer of the sacred penitentiary shows from 89, 18 89, the best course is to conform to the usages established amongst men, precisely as one does with regard to other prices.

And as happens in the case of such prices, particular circumstances influence the rate of interest either by increasing it or low lowering it. So, you know, the church does not condemn the charging of interest on loans. Obviously there's been this debate about usury in the history of the church, but, but I agree with you.

I mean, I think, I think Dave's understanding is, is. Is this just a certain reading of the Bible, and he's not really tackling any of the conversation that's gone out on during church history about this whole issue. And and obviously the church then you, and I know that there are reasonable things that men can do to, to utilize debt prudently in their [00:28:00] business, in their household.

So I th I think

we're aligned on that. Okay.

Ben Martinek: Yeah, I think so. I mean, he does give some great stories of the, the, the tendency that you're more protective of your money. Only a few slowly have accumulated a bit by debt and saving it. And you know, you can be a little reckless in the use of capital or, you know, people can, I think, get things, get themselves wrong when they start their own business.

And they just think of it if I just spend a whole bunch of money, you know, only via this loan, but I've taken out that a business on the other end will miraculously appear that. we'll know, you know, The a profitable business that works. And so it's a slam dunk success, you know, I just need to take out a bunch of money and spend it.

And now I've got a nice business is not quite so straightforward as you might imagine. Right? I mean, you can spend only a bunch of money and only all you've accomplished. Treat yourself as you spent a bunch of money. Like you don't get something necessarily on the other side. And so there's definitely need for you to be judicious.

Deciding, you know, is now a good time to utilize capital [00:29:00] as like almost a steroid shot to accelerate things and move it along on canvas. Be a good way for me to improve my business. I certainly think it can be, but we need, we really need to get a business going first, just to be thinking from the business angle of a public business loan.

We need to get a business going first before. We go out and get a business loan. So I don't know. I mean, there's, there's pluses and minuses here. I mean, on the firsthand, first of it, I think you're probably better off not getting any, any debt, you know, like Dave telling you not to get in the debt is probably going to save you a lot of headache and worry in trouble because until you've kind of seasoned your judgment and know how you plan to utilize it not having the access to that debt is, is a good thing.

Probably gonna misuse that resource, but can eventually we incorporate this resource in Kansas eventually make a lot of sense and only if you're really profitable and a good use of money. Yeah. Completely. I mean, debt can be very powerful and very good, but it's knowing when it should be deployed as probably the tricky part.

Andy Flattery: Amen. So let's do [00:30:00] parting thoughts. So I think my parting thought is read total money makeover. If you're just getting started. And then Ben, I think I agree with you. You moved beyond it. I think I got this from our mutual friend Joshua sheets, but what he said, and I agree with was don't do Dave Ramsey do what Dave Ramsey did, which is start a business.

Ben Martinek: Yeah.

Andy Flattery: I think that's my big lesson from Dave Ramsey is his path to wealth has been his business. It wasn't following the

baby steps.

Ben Martinek: No. I mean, it's, Joshua is a great guy and he's definitely been a big influence in my life. And one of the takeaways that was eye opening for me when I heard him suggest that look, Dave Ramsey, isn't in a way, even following his own advice. And quite frankly, even most financial advisors don't follow that advice either where, you know, the real pathway to the wealth accumulation.

Isn't so much that you put so much money away in your Roth IRA or 401k this year, although that works okay. [00:31:00] I would put that as my number three option in terms of wealth accumulation, just simply saving money and putting it in the broader capital markets, definitely a successful means to accumulate wealth.

But I think it's the third of the slowest options. The other two big ways. And the two better ways to accumulate wealth is either start your own business and have success with that. Or you get into real estate and become a real estate mogul, which ironically Dave is too. Yeah, he doesn't invest just in stocks and bonds, although he suggested that.

I mean, cause there's just as much real estate investing as he does anything else. So those are the, I think the better methodologies. And so, yeah, I mean, if you want to really become wealthy, you know, putting some money away. You know, 25% in a large cap, mid cap, small cap stocks and international like, well, I could get, can get the job done.

I don't know if I would do that advice alone, but it's really not the right solution. Like, like have you explored the possibility of starting your own business? Because you know, quite frankly, that's where most [00:32:00] wealth is made in this country.

Andy Flattery: agreed. Great. Well, Ben, any parting thoughts on the man

of the hour, Dave Ramsey?

Ben Martinek: No. I mean, Dave is a great guy and I think more highly of him than I am negative. Oh, you could do a lot of things worse in your life than listen to Dave So it made, if only you had to choose between listening to him and not listening to him, I tell you to listen to them. Oh, he's going to do a lot of good, but I do I think there's a time you need to outgrow 'em and you know, when you decide how to outgrow.

You know, if you're early on in this whole transformation of finances, all you probably should just listen to Dave, but maybe if you're three years in five years, then maybe it's time for you to start considering other resources. Because I think Dave is going to start leading you astray if you continue to listen to him alone.

Andy Flattery: Agreed, Ben, this has been

great. Good work, man.

Ben Martinek: Right? Anytime. Thanks for having me on Andrew. Hope to chat with you again soon.